Hyper-threading

I would like to know what the setting is of the
i7 Core of the Nucleus Plus and how I can switch it off in case it is on?
Also what the preferred setting would be?

According an article, switching off Hyper threading will increase SQ.

See below the information from Intel

Hyper-Threading
Type One-of
Enabled
Disabled
Help When disabled, only one thread per active core will be available.
Requires Enabled and grayed-out if Intel® Trusted Execution Technology is set to Enable
Aptio V BIOS Page Performance >Processor

Thanks in advance,
Jeff

In that article, how many cores does the processor have. The Nucleus only has two physical cores, so four logical with HT on. In addition Roon is only configured to use one core during playback unless you set it differently. But to answer your question, you will need to access the bios to disable HT. But I have no idea what security settings Roon may or may not have employed to stop you changing anything. If they have done nothing, then from memory pressing F2 during boot up should get you in.

Thanks for your response Henry, very helpful.

Let’s wait and see any response from Roon as they should know the configuration of the Roon Nucleus Plus and possibility to check or even possible to change or not.

Jeff

Not support staff, but, I would guess that they will suggest leaving it alone and as set by default.

Nucleus OS, which is different than ROCK, has special thermal routines for throttling CPUs in the fanless Case. Adjusting anything in BIOS, especially concerning the CPU, may mess up those calculations and have unintended and deleterious consequences.

The Nucleus is designed to be a box you never mess with; it is not designed for the tinkering set.

Given what the Devs have stated about ROCK, I would assume it stands even more so for the Nucleus.

[quote=“mike, post:11, topic:75537”]
We’ve put a lot of effort into making sure Roon OS runs in lightweight, high-performance way without requiring additional “tweaking”. The idea is that there’s basically no configuration to do – you follow the instructions and it just works.

…snip…

You’re of course welcome to tweak BIOS settings on ROCK, but that’s not something we can test or support. If tuning the performance of your Roon Core is something that’s important to you, it’s possible ROCK isn’t for you – that’s completely your choice, but other operating systems are going to provide significantly more flexibility here.

If you’re going to use ROCK, our support team can definitely help with any issues where things aren’t “working as designed”, but advising about the possible effect or benefit of any changes outside the documentation isn’t something they can offer a lot of feedback on, since our recommended settings are already clear in the documentation. [/quote]

Hi Daniel,

Despite not being support staff, your answer makes sense :wink:

Just because It’s mentioned switching off Hyper-threading, SQ will improve, I was curious about this. Even if we should not mess around with those settings it would be interesting to know and to make our own choices.

What article? This is nonsense from my POV.

Hyper threading is a critically important part of Intel CPU performance for multithreaded applications.

Turning it off is a mistake.

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Sounds like the audiophoolery, AS sprout.

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Section “Tweaking the computer” here: https://helpcenter.steinberg.de/hc/en-us/articles/360008589880-Windows-10-How-to-set-up-and-optimize-a-Digital-Audio-Workstation-DAW-

Also, page 9 from “AudiophileOptimizer Computer Audio Setup Guide” (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjezLij6_7oAhVOmIsKHVgxDxIQFjAAegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpdf.highend-audiopc.com%2Faudiophile-optimizer-setup-guide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3CgPakAYWdv-poG-1j8Qp9).

Also, Audiolinux site (http://www.audio-linux.com/).

And many more…

let me address each of these:

  • Disable Hyper-Threading (Intel)/Simultaneous Multi-Threading (AMD) in the UEFI BIOS if your CPU supports it and if your BIOS allows you to modify this setting.

This one is not explained and makes zero sense. This, if anything, helps the performance of your CPU, not hurts it. I strongly disagree with this advice.

  • Disable advanced power-saving and dynamic performance options for your CPU if applicable. This usually needs to be done in the UEFI BIOS of your computer and includes ‘Enhanced Intel SpeedStep (EIST)’, ‘AMD Cool ‘n’ Quiet’, ‘Intel Turbo Boost’, and ‘AMD Turbo CORE’.

Most of the power saving options only apply when you are idle, so they wouldn’t really kick in if your computer is doing anything. The “turbo” functions make your CPU faster. If you are doing intense DSP or your computer is lagging behind, this could help prevent dropouts. It will come with the penalty of heat, an increased power bill, and possibly higher electrical noise (which may impact sound quality if your equipment is not shielded properly).

  • Disable C-States in the UEFI BIOS if this is accessible. C-States allow your CPU to sleep when idle, which may interfere with real-time applications such as audio. This option is often called ‘Disable CPU Idle State for Power Saving’.

C-States just turn off parts of the computer when idling. If you need it, they will come back on. If you are using your CPU for real-time applications, turning this off will not make an impact, as your CPU is going to be used, not idling.

I may be reading the wrong thing, but it says nothing about hyper threading in that document.

The general consensus here is that hyperthreading improves performance but can increase latency in a few cases. In realtime cases this may matter a bit (for example, how quickly your ear hears sound when you pluck the strings on a guitar). Remember, we are talking nanoseconds to microsecond ranges and sound travels at about 1ft per millisecond – so improving latency by something as absurdly large as 1000 microseconds, would be equivalent of stepping away from the speaker by 1 ft.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with sound quality. One exception is when you are have latency inconsistencies that screwing up your processing of audio in the DAC. Buffers and a good clock should prevent both. You’d have to have some pretty bad gear to have these issues, and the result would be pops and clicks, not fidelity loss.

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I think someone knowledgeable at Roon (perhaps you) should write a blog post explaining the difference between signal theory and information theory. Hopefully with something like that, readers can understand why digital audio is not subject to the kind of fidelity issues that analog audio is. At least not until it’s been converted.

Just to clarify; that the section you are referencing says this (bolded emphasis mine):

Tweaking the computer

Modern systems with a fully updated Windows 10 should not need any of the default settings to be modified. However, if certain drivers are not fully optimized and you experience audio drop-outs, it is worth having a closer look.

The suggestions that you reference are troubleshooting suggestions in case there are dropouts or an unusual piece of gear has flaky drivers causing system issues. Otherwise, as the section says the default settings should not need to be modified.

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I started something here:

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@danny @Rugby

Disable Hyper-Threading is one of suggested solutions for solving audio drop-outs.
As long as disabling something (Hyper-Threading) can help eliminate some causes for a problem (audio drop-outs), this means that disabling that something could most likely be beneficial in general, unless there is a serious reason not to be disabled.
On the other hand:

  • This forum is full of audio drop-outs. I don’t know if some (or many) of them are (or not) relating to Hyper-Threading. I haven’t seen Roon’s suggestion of this solution in any of the posts related to this topic (maybe because it doesn’t apply to Roon in any case).
  • All audiophile operating systems (whether Windows or Linux based) provide clear instructions for disabling multiple BIOS features (either unnecessary or negatively impacting sound quality). The ones in the “Tweaking the computer” section are about universally valid for all of these operating systems. Roon ROCK lacks these instructions (the ones in the help are not related to the sound quality, but only to the boot order, etc.). For Roon ROCK users (even Roon users), such instructions would be much appreciated.

Roon needs Hyper-Threading? It is good or bad to disable this feature? We (users) don’t know this, and this is why we are asking you about it.

Here is an example: just try to enable / disable HPET (High Precision Event Timers) on any audio PC (including Roon ROCK) and check the result. And this is just one of multiple BIOS settings affecting sound quality…

P.S.: See also Intel NUC recommended BIOS settings.

Thanks…great post. I wasn’t aware of it because I tend to stay away from those kinds of threads.

Do not modify Nucleus BIOS. You will void your warranty.

As for ROCK/NUC, we provide the exact BIOS settings we suggest in the documentation. We do not suggest you manipulate it expecting some SQ benefit.

As for dropouts, if someone experiences dropouts on Roon OS devices with hardware we approved (supported NUCs for ROCK or Nucleus), then we suggest finding the cause and look for a bad cable or network situation.

This is a very strange way of interpreting my post (the subject is not drop-outs) and it is certainly not an answer to it…

I understand that Roon’s policy is something like “we do not provide any information about BIOS settings and optimizations (except for those related to boot mode and order, which have nothing to do with sound quality)”.
At least now it is clear that we are wasting our time asking you for information about such optimizations of your product performance.

Danny,
My original question was not mend to be a tricky one or to create any troubles.
IMHO just a fair question but now it is clear you or Roon are not willing to show what the settings of the bios should be. Fair enough, at least a clear reply. Any change of Bios settings at Roon Nucleus or Plus, warranty is over.

It was not my intention at all to change any of the settings. Just curious what those were for my initial question and how to change those to make sure best SQ is available here.

Regrets my life time subscription and Purchase of Roon Nucleus Plus.

These products are meant to give you a great experience with a turn-key solution. They are not meant to be tweaked. While tweaking is possible, our position is not one to change things we believe will have zero impact on the SQ but will have a large impact on reliability, performance, and the need for future support.

For example, everyone using ROCK + fanless cases is probably shortening the lifespan of the CPU by years, as ROCK does not do any thermal load adjustments. Will it work? Yes. Could it cause future damage to their hardware? I believe it will. Will people disagree with me? Yes, but I’m not selling them ROCK or the hardware in that case so I stay quiet.

Are you having a bad time with Roon? Does it sound sub-par to you?

If you did something to tweak your Nucleus+ and it caused an issue that damaged the hardware or caused an issue with the software, you’d want us to cover that under warranty. I’m trying to avoid that. I’m sorry you regret buying a turn-key product in hopes to tweak it.

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@Jeff_S

Here is a guide for computer (including BIOS) optimization for audio, from Highend-AudioPC.com.
It contains one chapter dedicated to BIOS, with clear instructions about Hyper-Threading.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwi5pdnmvIHpAhXuQhUIHfFFBsEQFjAAegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.highend-audiopc.com%2FPDF%2Fcomputer_audio_best_practices_guide.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0ee6u-5TEPtD9V7TyqymL_

While many of these optimization may have a place in a computer being use for a DAW, it does not follow that they also have a place in a computer being used for listening to music.

A DAW has some important requirements:

  • Low latency throughput from input to output (audio interface input to audio interface output)
  • High volume of audio data processed by heavy use of floating point calculations in real time
  • High volume of audio data pulled from storage and processed (including being mixed on a summing bus).
  • Sometimes high volume of data being written to storage
  • All of above with very tight timing being maintained with no disruption of any ADC or DAC data paths.

Additionally, a decade or more ago many of the plugins and even some DAWs were not good at multi-CPU synchronisation.

Disabling hyperthreading back in this time was though to assist in making the floating point parts of the CPU more consistently available to an FP intensive high priority DSP thread. A read up on exactly how hyperthreading used to work (and maybe still does?) will probably help, but simplistically, a single CPU has one of a bunch of important functional units including floating point and integer units. Hyperthreading allows two virtual cores to each bit of the shared core that another virtual core is not using. So, it doesnt for eg increase floating point performance but did allow integer and floating point to occur concurrently per core.

I have experimented with such tweaks back in those days being a semi-professional producer at the time. In end - yes sometimes you could get a benefit, but often I found it hit and miss according to the specific intel hardware and memory etc in use and even OS. Either way, I generally found if there was a gain it was marginal and as DAWs improved then actually the reverse was more often true - ie disabling HT was much slower. DAW are typically not fine grain multi-threaded apps as the overhead of thread sync are quite high, along with CPU caching strategies of the time etc - it made some sense that this use case could benefit from HT off.

The other thing that is mentioned however did hold true back at that time - disabling power related clock throttling (speed step etc). The main effect of disabling this was to allow the DAW to be pushed to higher overall utilization before audio drop outs occurred because at the time it took too long for the CPU clock to speed up again to avoid an audio drop out under very low latency conditions.

Now bare in mind, I was working with very low audio buffer size in order to achieve the lowest round tri latency possible (ie latency between me playing a key on my midi keyboard to a software synthesizer making a sound, to me hearing the result via an audio interface). This was important as too much latency (more than a few ms) making maintaining accurate timing (groove) when playing an instrument quite hard.

NONE of these issues apply to music playback of even high res on most modern computers.

Also clock throttling for power has become vastly more responsive these days compared to when such tweaks were initially used. These day I do not apply any such tweaks on my windows 10 PC running ableton live. I had never need to apply such tweaks on my macs at all as they were always able to maintain glitch free audio under even very heavy load and these days windows 10 has become a lot better as well. Also modern DAWs are much better implemented in terms of how the perform cross thread synchronisation with multiple cores. Back then when these kind of guidelines were written they were often poor.

None of these tweak were ever done for audio quality reasons in a DAW - they were done very specifically to get the most out of the available hardware and software of the time.

Even at the time (early 2010s) power throttling (speed step etc) was never an issue for typical normal/high latency audio associated with listening to music that typically uses very conservatively long buffers at multiple stages because quite simply there is no hard real time requirement.

These days compiler have very much improved. The hardware implementation of HT in the CPU has improved and the OSs have significantly improved. Switching this off is more likely to cause issues in a marginally capable system than prevent them.

Also disabling any form of power related clock throttling will result in the CPU running at a fixed and often max speed regardless of load. This mean it will run hotter and consume much power (so the power components also run hotter). Unless very well ventilated this may well cause way more serious problem including complete thermal shutdown which on many motherboard also results in a full BIOS reset for safety reasons.

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