Is an i5 Processor Laptop a better Roon Core than a NUC i3?

When I first started using Roon, in April of 2020 I bought the then-recommended NUC to run it on. It is this one:

Just recently, in order to develop Focus Fidelity convolution filters for Roon, I recently bought this Dell Laptop. Although Windows in my machine is upgraded from Win10 to Win11.

Even before using convolution filters, I seemed to be right on the edge of not having enough processing power. It was not unusual for Roon to freeze, to be unable to upsample to higher multiples, etc. Now with a convolution filter always engaged, these issues have gotten worse.

The Dell laptop is already dedicated to only Roon use. So I am wondering, should I use the laptop as my Roon Core? From the specs it looks like it would be faster or more powerful. But I am a Mac guy where things just sorta work and there seems no need to understand the specs and what makes a computer good for this or better for that.

I mainly use files in my library (9382 tracks) but also stream from Qobuz. My library resides on a Melco Server and is co-located in a utility room with my NUC/Rock and a fairly up to date and fast Linksys WRT server. My end point is a Magna Mano streamer running Roipeee XL and it is co-located with DAC and the rest of my main audio system in my living room. All the above is linked by ethernet. My remote is a M1 Macbook that links via Wifi.

Roon is best utilized by Single Core CPU speed.

The i3 has base core of 3.0 Ghz. and the i5 has a base core of 2.40Ghz.

The i5 is newer and a step up in model number however it has a slower clock speed.

For what you are wanting to achieve a NUC8i5BEH or NUC8i7BEH would be a better route.

If I had to guess what you have is about the same in performance but I would give the edge to the i3.

Hope this helps.

–MD

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You can use both as a Roon core. Switch back and forth at will by unauthorizing one and authorizing the other. That does not require a second license.

I use an i3 Roon Nucleus at home and i7 Dell XPS 15 laptop for travel. They both work very well for me streaming from Tidal and Qobuz. I don’t do local files.

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This. MikeD reached the same concussion as I did. This is exactly what roon recommends. If the i3 is not working, go directly to the i7. I beat the installation/operation as hard as I could to break it on several pieces of the metric ton of still functioning hardware I have.

I now understand why roon has a very specific list of NUC’s on their recommended list. I picked an i7 and installed ROCK and nothing else. It works without a hiccup. Yes, I am obsessive, but I wanted to be sure before I pulled the trigger on a lifetime subscription. Hope this info helps. Good luck with your setup.

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You may have hardware faults or network issues. Because running out of processing power or memory seems unlikely. Unless your music library is too large, and in that case, no laptop class CPU may be appropriate. Rather, a desktop class CPU may be what is needed. But you really are not providing enough background info for diagnosis or recommendation.

AJ

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GENERALLY, newer Intel CPUs are faster/better than older gen ones. Often by a lot after 2-3 years. Of course the CPU is only one factor.

If you’re a Mac person anyway, you really can’t beat the Mac Mini M1 for horsepower/quality/value with Roon. And I say this as a current Nucleus+ owner.

Regardless, if I were having glitches etc and suspected it was because my Core was underpowered, I wouldn’t hesitate to update the hardware. There are a TON of good relatively inexpensive options

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If you’re going to dabble in room correction and convolution, I’d go with the fastest processor/number of processors combination you can get. For a NUC, it’s the i7. This is because parts of the process can be done in parallel in Roon.

However, note that if you want to do convolution on DSD files natively (not sampling to PCM) for bit rates >64, it’ll overwhelm even an i7. See my experience here.

For something as compute-intensive as this, you might go with an M1 or M2 Mac.

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No, Roon’s multi thread/core processing toggle applies only to DSD, not general DSP.

AJ

Oh ok. Thanks for the correction.

Hello WiWave – Good point. I have now added information regarding my library and system to my original post.

Thanks Jim_F. Good to know I can use both (alternately) with one license. Given that, I guess I will check out what I need to do to get a core up and running on Win 11. 'Can’t hurt, right? Maybe I will be surprised and find that the Core i5 can help the situation somehow. And if I can also set up my M1 Macbook as a core I will throw that into the mix and see how performance is with it operating as core.

@Robert_Coker @Doug_Hannah @MikeD @shankha Thank you all. It does look like I need to think about another hardware investment. :pensive: Given I can test my Core i5 and my Macbook operating as cores I will give that a go to see what I find. If the i5 is a no-go and the M1 Macbook does well, I will do a bit of research to see whether an MI Mini or an i7 NUC will offer the most margin of performance and thus be the better long term investment.

That still is minimal information, only that your local library is not large and that your Melco server functions simply as a NAS. No Qobuz library size, no ROCK core specs, no DSP enabled, etc.

You can try to throw new hardware at an issue, but you really have not identified the source of the problem at all.

AJ

A few things which aren’t clear from your post, some additional information will help:

  • How many channels are you processing convolution for?
  • What tap count are you trying to run @ each sampling rate?
  • Have you prepared discrete convolution cfg files for each sampling rate being used? I.e. 44.1, 48, 88, 96, 176, 192khz… Or is Roon resampling impluse response files?
  • You mention upsampling, what are you upsampling to and why?
    I would always argue there is no point upsampling, if you can execute discrete FIR convolution @ each playback SR. Assuming your DAC can handle SR change.

As an example, I currently use an Intel series 3 i5-3427U Processor.
Roon is installed on Ubuntu server 21.10 running Roon server.

The Server completes all Roon tasks, and executes 2 way minimum phase crossovers @ native sampling rates (44.1, 48, 88, 96, 176, 192hkz) via Roon DSP engine.

I run 1:1, Sample rate:TAPS, @ 4 channels, which provides excellent target curve matching in rephase.

Ubuntu shows about 55% load as an average via htop, with Roon showing 5.4% ish processing speed @ 192,000 khz SR.

Low DSP engaged:
1x LP 36db LR minimum phase
17x constant EQ’s
2x Shelving

High DSP engaged:
1x HP 6db 1st order minimum phase
17x constant EQ’s
2x Shelving

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Memory, memory, memory.

If the OP is running the recommended 4gb on the i3, it probably won’t be enough.

The clock speed comparison is, with respect, misleading. It only really applies with chips within the same generation. As this is gen 8 vs. Gen 11 a better benchmark might be single core performance comparisons. I’d also check for performance constraints like eco modes or quiet modes in bios as these restrict power delivery.

There is nothing to lose by trying the core on any of the machines in your possession including the Mac. Switching between them is easy enough and they can be synchronised using backups.

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@Henry_McLeod – I had to research my purchases to find that my NUC has 8G of memory. I will be trying the Windows and Mac machines as cores to see how relative performance is. Good tip regarding synchronizing using backups. Thanks for your reply.

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@grizaudio Thanks so much Stephen for your very thoughtful reply as well as your helpful attitude. And you have asked for specific information so I can respond:
Channels Processing For: 2 (i.e. stereo)
Tap Count: Sorry but I don’t know where to find this information can you give me a pointer?
Convolution Files: Yes there are cfg files for each sampling rate
Upsampling: I have Roon set to only upsample to x2 to avoid stalling or dropouts I experience at higher rates. Why upsample? Because it seems the common wisdom is upsampling = better sound quality and the highest upsampling = the best sound quality. To tell you the truth I am not convinced I have ever heard an improvement in sound quality due to upsampling.

From your example it seems that ROCK running on a modest computer can accomplish quite a bit. So perhaps there is not a need to ditch my current NUC? Also Henry McLeod in his response mentioned that there can be “performance constraint like eco modes or quiet modes in bios as these restrict power delivery.” I am not sure how to troubleshoot for this or other settings that may be restricting performance of my NUC.

Thanks again.

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Hi Robert,

If you are only dealing with convolution for 2 channels, "you should have adequate processing power.
This is assuming your filters are not hyper complex.

I would first ensure the NUC is set to Performance Mode (check your bios, settings will be something like performance, balanced, power saving etc), and I would also remove 2x up sampling (this will do nothing for sound quality), if you still need CPU processing power you could review and minimise tap count (leave that to last).

To provide some background, when a convolution is made one typically needs to enter/select a tap count. The Tap count sets the maximum number of sampling points used to reproduce the target correction. The software used to create your convolution, will have this as a user selectable setting.

Roon will confirm also confirm tap count during playback…
The more taps, the more CPU processing/load required.
I provide two examples here.

My system taps @ 96khz (Notice 1:1 relationship with Sample Rate)

@ 44.1khz

I typically run with a 1:1 ratio (sampling rate to taps), which provides good balance of filter accuracy to target curve. Many people run taps well in excess of this, but for well executed correction it should be more than adequate. Its good to think of the tap count like the sampling rate for music, its the maximum number of points used to sample the target curve correction (which is then applied to the signal during playback). The higher the taps, the more accurately the target curve can be sampled/executed.

The goal IMHO is to use an adequate number of taps at each sampling rate, accurately reproducing the equalisation filter without over taxing the CPU.

EXAMPLE:
I have provided three tap counts; 6144 taps, 48,000, and 192,000 for the same 192khz low frequency crossover. The convolution correction executes 1x LR 36db minimum phase low pass, 17 constant Q EQ’s, 2 shelving EQ’s.

Blue = Target curve
Red = Filter result/accuracy based on tap availability
Red = 6144 taps. Moderate optimisation.
Inaccuracy starts from 300hz.

image.thumb.png.7403e044ade9ebb8b3838843c99e0f3a.png

image.thumb.png.d2e22c9b7db5497b3b86b8defe008b6e.png

Red = 48000 taps. Moderate optimisation.
You can see here, much better accuracy with moderate optimisation.

image.thumb.png.ca24f9e1cf46895b41fb28ea1b02947c.png

image.thumb.png.320bb838e5effb9bc28e42132a70c1b3.png

Red = 1920000 taps, so 1:1 Sample rate : Taps.
Moderate optimisation. Very accurate.
Zoomed @20hz.

image.thumb.png.ef271f6f1882b19ada4fd26322b1b113.png

Overview - Essentially perfect.

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image.png

Actions I would try:
I would personally remove 2x up sampling.
x2 will not be adding anything to SQ, IMHO. This will also save much needed CPU processing power.
Check your Roon processing speed? what is it now?

In regards to experiencing dropouts or stalling at higher rates? this is odd indeed, what DAC are you using? Consumer or Pro? Does your DAC need a fixed sample rate?

I don’t use Rock. I run Ubuntu with Roon Server installed. From my experience Rock is slightly more efficient, gaining a few processing cycles. Rock is worth considering, I personally found Windows much slower and demanding on resources Vs Ubuntu or rock. I would never use Windows for a music server.

IMHO, a modern NUC should have no issue processing convolution for 2 channels, assuming your not up sampling to DSD and running an insane count of taps.

My NUC is only a series 3 i5, and runs in ECO mode.

As a side note:
I can execute the same convolution filters at 96khz, 96,000taps using CamilaDSP on a Pi4 running Ubuntu. This includes resampling to 96khz as CamilaDSP requires a fixed SR.

In fact running the Pi4 as a Roon bridge with CamilaDSP executing convolution works perfectly…. but the PC is considerably more powerful executing identical single core DSP.

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I’m curious, what is your current Roon processing speed before making any changes?

@44.1khz and 192khz content please.

& Do you experience playback issues with local and streamed internet qobuz/tidal music?

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Hi Stephen. Processing speed is showing as between 34.7x and 35.7x. Here is a screenshot of the Signal Path panel.

As you can see I have not yet turned off X2 upsampling in Roon. But I will, as I really dont think its adding to sound quality either.

And as you can see in the screenshot, I am running 66K taps, about 50% more than you are.

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