Well, Yes and No. I never go to the Tidal page. What I do is use Roon’s search feature which will search all of Tidal, added to my library or not. Even this small level of integration, I suspect, would not even be there with Spotify.
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I also use the same search. It is terrific.
My point was that you can still make it work by driving from the Tidal page. The search api would probably still work. I just feel that full blown maximum integration seems to be held up as a reason not to proceed. Maybe a compromise is needed.
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I think you are right Nick, and i’d prefer the option to have playback possibility with Spotify (or whatever) to having no online service tied in at all. Of course this would be a disaster for Roonies that rely on Tidal as sole provider of content.
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Even better, enable Roon to accept audio streams from outside Roon, without the need for any branding, or having to deal with other app logins. When you used it this way you accept there’s no queue, now playing info, lyrics etc, Roon functions purely as a DSP and output.
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Very well put nick!
This can be done through a ui integration, but even spotify connect routed through the Roon architecture would not be a bad thing to have as an option.
Nowhere near the cool factor of the Tidal level integration.
But very practical when friends are over.
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Maybe Roon can get out a big loan and buy Tidal!!! Vertical integration at its finest!
Its certainly cheaper now than it was a year ago.
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All these discussions regarding Tidal profitability are somewhat amusing to me. Essentially all the streaming services are losing money in a big way. Spotify is much larger than Tidal and also has never reported a profit. Not sure about Apple Music, but of course it has lots of profit from other things as a company. Heck, has Amazon shown a profit yet? Maybe so, but for many, many years they had only losses.** Technology companies are more concerned with “burn rate” than profit in the early years. Streaming is still the “early years”…
**looked at their most recent 10-K. Both net income after tax and comprehensive income show a loss in 2014 ($241 million and $567 million). They do show profits in 2015 and 2016. From what I can gather from a quick look, Amazon never reported a profit from its inception until 2009. I can find my own orders at Amazon going back until 1998. They show “archived orders” so maybe I started before then. (edit: it appears they started in 1994; I know I used them before they went public in 1997.) But you get my point. For technology companies like music streaming companies, it is mostly about cash flow (burn rate) and outlasting the competition. That certainly has worked for Amazon.
There is some magic number (of paid users) that they are all chasing - a break even point. It would vary between Spotify, Apple and the rest. Maybe it’s 100 million paid subscribers or whatever.
There must exist this magic number (internally) and a guesstimate of when they expect to reach this. Even if the target date moves, that’s what they are chasing and using to get more cash along the way.
But they are thinking long term and when they pass this magic number (whatever it is), it should be happy days.
Same would apply to Tesla. When production numbers hit Elon’s magic number, it will be happy days. As long as he convinces investors they are on track (even with some delays along the way) to reach this magic number, the cash keeps coming in and the juggernaut rolls on.
That’s the plan anyway.
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One thing to consider here is that what the streaming services are selling may not be what they see as their path to profitability. Sure, we’re all giving them $X / month in subscription fees, but we’re also giving them something that’s potentially more valuable… data. We’re telling them what music we like along with when and how we like to listen to it. We’re providing far more granular data than the music industry has ever been able to gather in the past. Something tells me that data is going to end up being worth a lot more than the monthly fees paid by subscribers.
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A huge point.
@Danny (or others) …why won’t Spotify create a partnership with Roon?
I understand they’ve rebuffed approached by Roon.
i know Spotify was testing lossless a while ago…
they can certainly offer it if need be.
To me having Spotify offer lossless and integrate Roon is a win win for more customers and growing their market …or at least offering options for hifi oriented people with a $15-20/mo lossless option with Roon…or am i missing something?
i’ve used Spotify before…imo more user friendly than is Tidal’s interface.
The issue with Roon integration is that the streaming service is agreeing to give up a certain amount of control over their users and what they see. They are also giving up a lot of their data collection abilities (see my post above).
While I think it would be great to see Spotify or Deezer integration I don’t think that’s going to happen any time soon. The services are losing too much upside for very little gain.
As for making Roon an audio output for Spotify (or others), there are a lot of issues here.
First off, Roon has made it very clear that their mission is to develop Roon as a music hub for music lovers. Roon isn’t audio playback software (although that’s one of many features), it’s an entirely different way for people to interact with their music. Funneling Spotify through RAAT is absolutely antithetical to that unless Roon decides at some point to make RAAT (the plumbing) a transport standard that can be adopted outside of Roon. There are benefits and drawbacks to doing this, but that’s outside the scope of the conversation.
Spotify requires integrators to use Spotify Connect and with that comes some very specific requirements for interface and branding. Furthermore, the Spotify Connect doesn’t necessarily match up with the Roon architecture. I don’t have time to go into all of the ways in which Spotify Connect is crippled, but suffice it to say making it work within the scope of Roon would be one hell of an undertaking with little to gain on the Roon end.
If you want Spotify support then look for an endpoint device that includes Spotify support along with RAAT.
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thanks for this…i mostly stream (despite having 750gb of ripped cd music)…I just like the convenience of streaming…so i do hope that Tidal remains a viable player and they can hang in there (as i’m a both a Tidal subscriber and also a lifetime Roon member)
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That all makes sense, except Roon has the ability to add Internet Radio streams, effectively turning Roon into “audio playback software”, eliminating the “entirely different way for people to interact with their music.” while also allowing potentially poor quality streams.
Allowing users the ability to funnel other sources into Roon via some sort of line-in is kinda the same…I realize not technically, but conceptually at least.
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Think so, tried to register for family membership, I’m living in Philippines.
Ended up on a page do not exists, when trying to see price and subscribe.
Think they don’t care about small countries in revenue, but all small streams do help
So not easy to be a member, gave up, Roon works well without . 
wasn’t last.fm essentially getting the same data gratis, much like Roon is now, albeit more granular?
All the doom and gloom commentary on Tidal here looks as if people think that those who run Tidal don’t know the issues.
Tidal do know their business, objectives, challenges and most of all the numbers and future strategies. It’s just so easy to make doom and gloom predictions from a base of opinion without all the facts and real knowledge of the players and their motivations.
Thoughts.
Seems about right…
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I’d love to see integration of songs playing on Internet Radio with Roon/Tidal. A button that might answer the question “Have I got that song ?” after searching local libraries and external services.
There are two different topics being discussed here. On one hand, the integration of streaming and local files within Roon. On the other the ability to stream other sources to a Roon endpoint.
Concerning the first, whether it is Tidal, Spotify, Deezer or Qobuz, or any other, it does not make that much of a difference. I do not have a Tidal account. My only concern is that Roon would lose a significant portion of its customer base if Tidal went out of business. We are not there yet, but there is some concern, and Roon as of today has not really addressed those concerns. Should they?
Concerning the second point, the lack of any standard across hardware platforms is just a pain for the consumer. The only cross platform audio standard is Bluetooth, at this point, which works with pretty much all operating systems and software (as long as you have a Bluetooth transmitter and receiver).
Whether it is AirPlay, Chromecast, Upnp, Sonos connect, you are bound to run into some limitations. I doubt Roon has the solution to that problem.
Brand dilution.