Lyrics dissappeared after updating metadata via Picard

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

Content you’re reporting an issue with

I found out that LIbrary counts disappeared if I had the tag “work” from MB, but when I deleted it, the lyrics also disappeared.

I have another version I didn’t update the metadata and the lyrics are there.

Have you made any edits to this content in Roon?

The only modification I made was matching my release to the one on Musicbrainz Picard

Is the album identified in Roon?

Yes, it’s identified

Is this content from local files, TIDAL, or Qobuz?

This content is from my own CD rips, local files

Screenshot of import settings

Description of the issue

The lyrics in one version of the album dissappeared after updating the metadata. It also happened on a couple other albums, but not all of them.
I updated the metadata via Musicbrainz Picard.

[joel]

Moving to Support .

[mjw]

@macaumetal

I found out that Library counts disappeared [after] I updated the metadata via MusicBrainz Picard.

Most likely, the album you identified in Picard is a different version to that previously in your library. Consequently, Roon will treat is as a different entity, which is why the library counts are zero (they aren’t reset.) Lyrics may not be available for that particular release.

If you look in Settings → Library → Library maintenance, you may see there are files in the database, but no longer available. Do not clean up the library until this matter is resolved!

It would be really helpful if you shared details of the release.

[vadim]

Hello @macaumetal

Thank you for reaching Rooon support.

It might be helpful to have the file(s) for testing on our end as well, can please upload them here and let us know?

https://workdrive.zohoexternal.com/collection/nqcgjac23027d90a441bda2c314de49d7958a/external

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

Hi @vadim I just uploaded the files from that album, thanks!
Let me know if you need anything else

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

Maybe, but, after adding all the metadata, I deleted Only the WORK tag and the counts reappeared.

This is the release in MB: https://musicbrainz.org/release/f4d3396a-62f3-44ca-ac7b-4d6f0215e641

Let me know which details do you need.

Thanks

[vadim]

Hello @macaumetal,

Thank you for the update.

I do not see any “WORK” tag on the https://musicbrainz.org/release/f4d3396a-62f3-44ca-ac7b-4d6f0215e641, would youi kindly clarify where you added/removed this tag?

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

Oh I removed the tag via a script in Picard since I like the count option, woud you like me to add it and re upload?
I also have Razors Edge WITH the work tag not showing lyrics or library counts

[mjw]

There shouldn’t be any work or parts for Back in Black (this release has ten individual tracks with unique titles, as expected.) It looks like you have selected the correct version (release country), but I doubt that this is the issue. Possibly, the addition of work has caused Roon problems identifying the release – Roon support will be better placed to answer this.

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

I went to Picard to check and the WORK tag actually is the name of the track in MB not the WORLK tag in Roon for multi part recordings, and that generates some conflict.

I’m no expert but on Musicbrainz every recording is considered a work, and you should associate it to a track when uploading a release to the database so I think that’s where that tag comes from.

and maybe this links the track to that specific reference, and that’s why the library count dissappear (just a thought, no real evidence)

Anyway thanks for your input

[vadim]

Hello @macaumetal,

Thank you for the update.

1. WORK Tag in MusicBrainz and Picard

• Picard is a tagging tool that pulls metadata from MusicBrainz.
• In MusicBrainz, every recording (i.e., track) can and usually should be linked to a WORK — the underlying composition.
• For example, a recording of “Piano Sonata No. 14” would be linked to the WORK “Piano Sonata No. 14 in C-sharp minor”.

So when you tag your music in Picard, it adds this WORK tag, referring to the composition, not the track name.

2. Roon’s Handling of WORK and PART

• Roon handles classical music using a two-part hierarchy:
  • WORK = the larger composition (e.g., the symphony or sonata)
  • PART = the individual movement or track (e.g., “I. Adagio sostenuto”)
• If your tags (from Picard or otherwise) only contain the WORK tag (and not a separate PART), Roon might misinterpret the track.

If you tag non-classical albums like AC/DC’s Back in Black using the WORK tag, you might run into issues with how Roon displays or organizes the album, even though Roon is primarily optimized to use WORK and PART for classical music.

Let me know if you have any other questions or concers.

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

Hi @vadim thanks for the explanation, I get that, and it’s what I tried to explain on my previous comment but maybe I misexplained myself.

I get the difference between the Work tag in MB and Roon, that’s why I made a script to prevent Picard from adding it to my files.

That particular tag was the reason the library counts weren’t showing (once the tag was removed, the icons next to the track showing other versions of the song reappeared in Roon)

What I still don’t understand is why the lyrics are not showing in Roon on that particular release since on other local version and the Tidal version tI can see the synched lyrics.

Prior to using Picard the lyrics were there. I don’t have any “lyrics” tag on the files that may interfere.

This is something I’m trying to solve before using Picard on my 2000+ releases.

I tried deleting all the metadata and using Jaikoz Lite, and it’s the same, the lyrics show on all the versions BUT this one.

I’m going to try re ripping the CD, at this point I don’t know what else to do…I mean i’s not that I can’t listen to the music, but I’d like to get the lyrics when available without having to add them to the file.

Thanks

PS: since english is not my main language, I apologize in advance for any difficulty in explaining my situation, I really value the time and effort of the people that is trying to help me.

[vadim]

Hello @macaumetal,

I imported the files you shared earlier, and the lyrics loaded without any problems. Did you make any changes after uploading the album to our servers?

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

OK, so after I read your message @vadim I reinstalled Roon, and restored a back up copy made just before reinstallation and the problem remained.

Then I restored from a previous backup from april 6, and the lyrics appeared!!!

Checking the library import settings the only different things were:

These options are set to “prefer Roon”:

Track’s Recording start date
Track’s recording end date
Track’s production credits
Track’s conductor credits

and

Use REPLAYGAIN_ tag when present is OFF

the rest is the same.

BUT once I went throug Picard, the lyrics dissappeared again.

So I tried with The Razors Edge, I reripped the release and the lyrics showed, went through Picard and they dissappeared, tried Jaikoz…nothing, even deleting all the tags and adding them again in MP3Tag didn’t make a change.

Uninstalled Roon again with Revo Uninstaller (it deletes registry entries and all the residual files) , deleted every folder with “roon” on it, reinstalled. No lyrics on MY files.

Then I remembered I already updated the tags the same way for my Accept releases, and checked them.

This ones (which I uploaded the versions to MB myself ) went through Picard, and don’t have any problem:

• Accept
• I’m a Rebel
• Breaker
• Restless & Wild
• Stalingrad (2nd version)

BUT Blood of the Nations, lost the lyrics when updating the data from Picard

So this issue is very inconsistent, and I lack the knowledge to know why.

I’m giving up, I won’t update the tags because now I’m thinking “does that album has the lyrics but they’re not showing on my end?”, and that’s a path I shouldn’t go.

I’ll have to accept (no pun intended) I won’t get the information I want -which isn’t vital- but would have loved to be able to have.

I’m open for every/any test, connection, contact Roon would consider in order to help solve this if it helps.

Thanks again to all the people who tried to help.

[connor]

Hi @macaumetal,

Based on the description in your last few posts, we should have a clear A/B test by attempting to import various files edited externally via Picard. We’ll consult our QA team to attempt to reproduce this and get to the bottom - logs don’t show the lyric requests failing, but Roon is instead registering no lyrics available for certain tracks in the library. These may or may not be the tracks that have failed to load lyrics per your posts above, but it gives us a point of entry for attempting a reproduction.

Please stand by and we’ll comment as soon as we have more information available. Thank you!

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

Thanks @connor !! Please, let me know if you need anything from my end

[connor]

Hi @macaumetal,

Thank you for your patience.

Some further comments after investigating further. Tags for the FLAC files come from the Vorbis container. WORK is not standard field nomenclature for the Vorbis container, so the treatment will be different across different editors.

Please see their documentation here for the list of recommend standard fields:
https://xiph.org/vorbis/doc/v-comment.html

That said, we’re going to reproduce again with the files you’ve provided and pin down what’s happening and why Roon is behaving inconsistently here. We can likely create a ticket for development to adjust treatment. Hang in there and we’ll comment further as soon as possible.

[macaumetal (Gustavo Girves)]

Hi @connor thank you! I’ll wait for your comments.
Just to be clear, and because this may be helpful for you, I DON’T have WORK tags on my files.
I did, but the library count was missing and when I deleted it the library count showed up again, so I made a script in Picard to delete any Work related tag.

Nevertheles there were some releases WITH the work tag that showed both lyrics and library count, that’s why I said the problem was inconsistent.

These are two files I updated using Picard and MP3Tag, almost the same fields, (no WORK tags) depending on the available information in Musicbrainz:

Here’s Back In Black:

and here’s I’m a Rebel:

one has lyrics, the other doesn’t

Hope this is useful,

thanks again!!!

[connor]

Thank you for clarifying @macaumetal, we’ll share this information with the team.