A post was merged into an existing topic: Uptone EtherRegen with SonoreUPnP Bridge
In terms of physical measurements, I understand much is down to inter frame timing and micro-second differences - so without any lab equipment including a super sensitive jitter analyzer that could be used on the data stream, I use the only tool I have available, my hearing.
Remember that the ear is exquisitely sensitive to delay, way beyond the inverse of highest frequency (e.g. 1/20khz)… and classical conductors were reported to be able to discriminate in tests between absurdly low level of audio delay, which suggests that very small correlations and/or errors in sound between channels are important.
What is not mentioned is ictus. Ictus often used by Axcell in Audio Critic is about the leading edge of beats or phrasing in the music. One can hear it plainly on percussion music. But it is experienced on all music especially on percussion, vocal consonants. Its one of the things that makes following the beat or understanding the words so easy.
Ictus With the spoken word, ictus indicates the stress or accent on the syllable or foot of a verse. In music , the term ictus is used in conducting to denote the specific point in a visible pattern of beat points that articulates the pulse of the music to the ensemble.
Ictus - Definition (Artopium’s Music Dictionary)
Also while we are in this discussion, a commentary on measurements and sonics by Paul McGowen of PS Audio: https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/measure-well-sound-bad/
Simon
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OK, now I am confused. With your impressive technical background, I assumed you understood that for audio applications (e.g. RAAT), Ethernet is frame asynchronous. So any discussion of “jitter” in this context is meaningless. You either get the data - all of it - or the frame is re-transmitted. If this doesn’t happen fast enough to keep the Roon endpoint process buffer supplied with music bits, you get drop-outs or maybe the music just stops (I don’t know how RAAT is designed to handle TCP errors or excessive re-transmits).
So, “inter frame timing” and “micro-second differences” is managing the IPG (inter packet gap) which is required between frames. My $49.00 Netgear switch likely does this just as well as the Melco does, especially given the trivial payloads associated with home audio.
But at the end of the day, a frame is received and passed to the buffer - with no regards to any clock on the Ethernet device, from the perspective of the PCM data and the D-to-A process that follows (i.e. RAAT passes the data to something like ALSA on Linux for processing by a sound card, for example).
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Just a side note on the issues of credentials. Without referring to any specific Roon Forum participant, it is wise to bear in mind two things:
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We are not the men we once were. Many things such as blows to the head, blood clots, strokes (including the so-called micro-strokes, which are often neither detected or reported), consumption of psychoactive substances, and various neurological diseases such as Parkinson’s can cause significant alterations in unpredictable ways to one’s cognitive abilities. Including hearing, but not limited thereto. The simple wear-and-tear of age can also cause this; my formal training is as a mathematician, but I’d hesitate to attempt one of the proofs I once tossed off lightly.
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The human animal appears to be unique in its ability to lie about things to further private agendas. One possibility to consider when unthinkable results are reported is whether the speaker is channeling P. T. Barnum, who believed that a sucker is born every minute. Humans can say things they don’t actually believe with a straight face, and I have to confess that this unworthy thought often crosses my mind when I hear someone saying unbelievable things about very specific products that would seem to have high profit margins. On the other hand, failure to consider this possibility can lead to things like the Theranos debacle.
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Yes, I do understand that - up and down all of the layers, and all of the CRC checks as buffers are processed internally within the stack. etc.
And for a long time, yes my position was yours. Until someone sat me down and played the same track on the same system through different “Ethernet cables” and I heard the difference, and we went back and forward switching the cables in the same system, same room, same content. At that point, you have to trust what you actually hear.
So as my points earlier - learn to listen with an open mind, and trust what you actually hear. Plus listen to the music, enjoy it and its presentation, and not the processing or the technology.
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Not sure, what you are trying to say here.
The question was about background, not whether presently working in the Audio industry.
Also what private agenda do I have or the other forum member, who is busy re-ripping his extensive CD collection, to obtain what he has heard is an improved quality.
It would be different if we were manufactures, looking to raise fundings, or reviewers in the pockets of a manufacturer, with profits and personal gain to be made from the available market.
I do believe, I need to cease interaction here, and keep my experiences, observations and recommendations to myself.
Thank you, Good night and Christmas wishes to you all.
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Undoubtedly it’s good to keep an open mind but I can assure you that David and Simon have no affiliations or commercial interests here.
They are enthusiasts, like most of us here I presume, and are willing to share their experiences.
I just want to kick that assertion off the park.
.sjb
In other words, rationalising rather than reasoning.
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I’m sure of that. I was just pointing out that asking for, or citing, credentials doesn’t “seal the deal”, no matter what they are.
Personally, I believe that there is no real war between objective and subjective results. What people hear is valid and valuable, as are the objective measurements made by others. Belittling either, no matter how firmly you feel about it, is rubbish.
Of course, I also believe that remarkable claims should have remarkable evidence.
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…utter bullshit.
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If I paid that much for a switch, I’m sure it would sound better to me. Whatever works.
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How many times have I read variations on this: “I just bought a very $$$ doodad to add to my system. I wasn’t expecting much. Boy was I surprised when I hooked it up. The improvement in SQ was like night and day!”
If you weren’t expecting much, why did you nevertheless spend $$$ on it?
Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but I am guessing that what was really being said was: “I just bought a very $$$ doodad to add to my system. Waiting for it to arrive, I was beginning to have second thoughts. Maybe the ‘haters’ were right and it would make no difference whatsoever? Boy was I relieved when I hooked it up. The improvement in SQ was like night and day!”
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48 hours since EtherREGEN has been linked into my audio chain
For naysayers:
It improves SQ
For yes-sayers:
It improves SQ
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As P. T. Barnum put it, “The noblest art is that of making others happy.” Looks like the UpTone folks have mastered at least some of that.
[Sigh]
////
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Have you heard one in your system, @evand ?? I wouldn’t listen to the prejudice of others, rather, I suggest you make your own mind up as I did.
You can return it within 30 days for any reason, no questions asked, if no gains are heard. They have many satisfied customers.
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I’ve no need to thanks. No prejudice in measured results simply confirming what was obvious from the outset.
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ASR measured distortion and noise for 1kHz and 12kHz sine waves. This provides a good indication of the quality of a Digital to Analog device (or group of devices in this case) but it’s not enough to judge for the quality of music reproduction, timing/phase aspects matter as well as psychoacoustics.
A good switch can provide electric noises isolation as well as better shaped packets that all in all make the work of the streamer/DAC easier and better, and this has an impact on SQ. On an average system, this can’t be heard but on a high end one it’s very obvious, I evidenced it many times personally. Before that, i would have said “it’s all b$$hit”. It is not. Melco’s product is probably good but I agree their marketing pitch is ridiculous.
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For French readers here’s a good thread on listening tests of various “audiophile” switches incl. the “old but still good” D-Link or Netgear switches earthing tweak, as well as the new ‘bang for the buck” tweaked Cisco Meraki MS220.
http://forum-hifi.fr/thread-14586.html