MQA first unfold in Roon? MQA? [Delivered in 1.5]

[miguelito (Miguel Barrio)]

I buy that sequence of events line by line.

[Tony_McEvoy (Tony)]

My point is Roon is an excellent service and well worth the subscription but with all the issues with MQA people would turn off Tidal in their droves if Qobuz was an available option. It’s not unfortunately and unlikely to be . If another service integrated with Roon and offered hirez streaming they would leapfrog both competitors instantly . Is that a risk MQA are willing to take . There is s lot of disillusionment out there , whatever the reason for all the delays .

[miguelito (Miguel Barrio)]

@Tony_McEvoy

My point is Roon is an excellent service and well worth the subscription but with all the issues with MQA people would turn off Tidal in their droves if Qobuz was an available option.

Roon is fantastic. I would hate not to have it. I frankly don’t think MQA matters at all (yet). If it becomes truly meaningful, then a solution will arise, I am sure, within Roon or otherwise. A+ is actually a pretty good piece of software. If it provided the seamless integration with the library that Roon provides it would be very compelling.

[miguelito (Miguel Barrio)]

@Tony_McEvoy

Is that a risk MQA are willing to take . There is s lot of disillusionment out there , whatever the reason for all the delays .

I feel that the FoD do not understand the power of scale and that you need to give something to get something. There are plenty of firms in the graveyard of good ideas because the people running those firms did not understand negotiation.

[AndersVinberg]

@Tony_McEvoy

with all the issues with MQA people would turn off Tidal in their droves if Qobuz was an available option.

I don’t see that relationship. MQA may offer SQ value but it is number 87 on my list of priorities. I want Roon, with a good cloud service, and DSP RC is primary, and after that I want mobility and cloud sync of metadata and content. And if all of that works, and MQA is available on top of that without conflict, I’ll take it. But it won’t influence any decisions.

(Note, @Danny.)

[hifi_swlon (Steve)]

@AndersVinberg

but it is number 87 on my list of priorities

What are 1-86? (If for no other reason than not to discuss MQA)

[Tony_McEvoy (Tony)]

So we can get away from mqa No.1 is s nice bottle of red !

[miguelito (Miguel Barrio)]

MQA sounds fine. Sort of. There are very few titles I care to even consider as of now. Two examples:

1- Joni Mitchell’s “Blue” and “Both Sides Now”
They sound great, but not better than the high-res versions I have.

2- Morrissey’s “Viva Hate”
I love this album. The original version has mediocre sound. The MQA version does too.

Additionally I would say the improvement from upsampling with HQPlayer is generally on par or better than the improvement I have heard from some better sounding MQA releases. Except for those where the MQA release involves a remaster from the original source (in which case it is not really an MQA achievement per-se).

I am not one to start listening to any recordings simply because they are on MQA.

If the “MQA” label tends to indicate something that was carefully produced, then I am all for this even if that’s the only benefit. But like Anders said, it is not high on my list.

I started this thread out of curiosity as to what is taking so long. I got my answer: FoD. Not surprised.

[miguelito (Miguel Barrio)]

One more point on MQA: Lets be very clear - the lack of DSP post “full” decoding is a ginormous achilles heel. In fact I have zero problem giving up rendering in favor of first unfold + upsampling. This is what FoD fears - and rightfully so: they will lose that battle.

[mrvco]

Software unfolding to 24/96 in Roon would be nice since you get the vast majority of any ‘hi-res’ benefit without forgoing downstream signal processing or your preferred non-MQA DAC. I’m sure it’s in MQA’s best interest to drag their heels until they can get more deals signed with DAC manufacturers so they can generate more royalties. Audirvana and the Tidal desktop app have more of a 1:1 relationship between the app and DAC, where Roon can stream to any number of different DACs from a single Core.

[danny (Danny Dulai)]

@andybob

Obviously I have no actual knowledge or I wouldn’t be free to talk like this

I love the speculation (as long as it is noted that it is purely speculation)!

@miguelito

The issue must be entirely a business one and/or a spat between Roon and MQA/Meridian. Maybe there were some fingers waived during the split to create Roon. Pure speculation on my part.

No spat – we are all professionals, and friendships built are hard to tear down. It was a dramatic split, but it has no negative impact on MQA + Roon. We are all friendly, I partook in many liters of frosty Bavarian mugs with members of the MQA team in Munich. This just happens to be business as usual.

We are always trying to push things forward, and that takes time.

@miguelito, The rest of your posts paint a picture a bit more confrontational and dramatic than reality, but still surprisingly accurate. I also strongly agree with your viewpoints on the industry + MQA, what it takes to be successful, and how to make it happen. However we must remember that there are many strategies to success.

@miklats

Is it just a waiting issue for us Roon users?

yes.

@miklats

Or are these issues you mention prohibitating the first unfold in Roon alltogether?

nothing is prohibiting anything altogether.

[quote=“andybob, post:19, topic:26336”]
The Meridian/Roon separation may have had its ups and downs but fundamental respect and friendship endures, [/quote]

You nailed this. Enno and I met with Bob Stuart and others from MQA at High End in Munich 2 weeks ago, and it was great to see them all, and I think I can say that they felt the same. It was both fun and productive.

@Henry_McLeod

Really? World domination doesn’t happen over night! I think they are doing well

They really are. Knowing Bob Stuart, all I can state is that that man is a mastermind of patience. I’ve seen him wrangle established industries with such skill that would drive me and everyone I know mad. Their new(ish) CEO, Mike Jbara, is also especially competent.

@andybob

Roon argued strongly to fully unfold MQA in software, based on Roon’s knowledge of the DAC, and elements within MQA supported such proposal;

Yes, and more. We aren’t interested in doing a me-too. We have ideas of what we want to offer, and it isn’t what anyone else is thinking. This takes time.

@andybob

Other elements within MQA (let’s call them the Forces of Darkness or FoD for short) opposed full software unfolding, mainly because it would cannibalise the hardware licence model;

I wouldn’t go this far, nor would I call them FoD. This is not the movies. These types of organizations rarely exist (although I can definitely name at least one huge beast in the music industry).

@andybob

The debate within MQA surged back and forth with external communications suffering from technical gaps in the way we’ve come to know and love (see High End Show 2016);

I’m not sure about “within”, but the rest of this should be obvious to all that have watching the MQA saga unfold.

@andybob

The FoD prevailed, leading to a rupturing of relations with Auralic and a licking of wounds by Roon;

This point I disagree with completely.

1. There is no FoD.
2. The rupturing of relations with Auralic can only be explained through compounded misunderstandings or calculated malice – but it’s usually safe to assume that calculated malice is never the actual reason.
3. Roon couldn’t lick any wounds since we never made any investment of effort. We’ve made this mistake before with Spotify, we won’t make it again.

@andybob

Lawyers have become intimately involved with the negotiations, slowing the whole process down considerably while they weigh the Roon network model against the riding instructions from their MQA client.

Hah! All sides involved here have creative business minds and unfortunately, they slow things down much worse than lawyers. Luckily, the results usually turn out good for all, instead of just making lawyers rich.

@AndersVinberg

MQA may offer SQ value but it is number 87 on my list of priorities

THIS. This, more than anything anyone has ever said on the subject of MQA.

@hifi_swlon

What are 1-86?

@AndersVinberg – another topic for you to explore on the idea of what’s important to audio and music lovers? I’d love to read it … and oh my, the debate it would create!

@miguelito

I started this thread out of curiosity as to what is taking so long. I got my answer: FoD. Not surprised.

No no no – there is no evil, there is no darkness. Things just take time.

@miguelito

the lack of DSP post “full” decoding is a ginormous achilles heel

I agree, this is critical. If this is not allowed, then MQA becomes the Dolby of music audio, and innovation is stuck in the hands of a commercial entity that has no incentive to innovate. Mike Moffat & Jason Stoddard of Schiit state idea this well at about 9:49 into this video interview by John Darko.

@mrvco

Software unfolding to 24/96 in Roon would be nice since you get the vast majority of any ‘hi-res’ benefit without forgoing downstream signal processing or your preferred non-MQA DAC. I’m sure it’s in MQA’s best interest to drag their heels until they can get more deals signed with DAC manufacturers so they can generate more royalties. Audirvana and the Tidal desktop app have more of a 1:1 relationship between the app and DAC, where Roon can stream to any number of different DACs from a single Core.

As speculators outside the inner workings of these matters, it always impresses me how smart and insightful you guys can be sometimes. I shouldn’t be surprised, but it’s just human nature…

I really wish I could tell you all the full story, as it is much more exciting and full of “future making” material. Maybe someday over drinks at some bar post-audio-show or at someone’s ridiculous listening room … far after all this is ancient history

[Jumbuck]

How about (for speculation) we consider iRoon ? Apple buy Tidal and Roon and do a deal with MQA. Who else is as good as Apple in making us want to update everything every 12 months? A new version of MQA every year would be very profitable.

[Tony_McEvoy (Tony)]

Thanks for the feedback Danny , think a glass of red and a glass of patience is the best thing going forward !

[rrwwss52 (Robert)]

I sure hope that never happens. Unneeded Firmware updates to damage product functionality. “Apple” leads the way in screwing up a perfectly good working product with update-itis.

[hifi_swlon (Steve)]

What they (Apple) usually do (at least on the professional graphics side) is buy up software companies, force people to run the application on Apple hardware only, then take a few key bits out of the software and bundle a watered down version in with their own free software, then abandon the package all together for their own dumbed down replacement, which leaves everyone scratching their heads for a while before going off to find an alternative from another vendor. Very sad to see from a company that once pioneered.

[Toolio]

Pardon my ignorance here, but MQA is nowhere near the top of my priorities. However, the latest firmware update for my Audioquest Dragonfly Red has enabled MQA support. I don’t normally use the Dragonfly with Roon, since I have other (non-MQA) DACs. If I play Tidal MQA files with Roon and the Dragonfly attached to a Raspberry Pi endpoint (tested previously, and it works), will I or will I not experience MQA? Thanks.

[Henry_McLeod (Henry)]

You will not. The Dragonfly is a renderer. That means it is dependant on software to do the first unfold, it then takes care of the second. Roon does not yet do any unfolding.

[miguelito (Miguel Barrio)]

Only the TIDAL native app on mac or windows or Audirvana on mac can do the first unfold, which is required by the DF to render MQA.

[Toolio]

@miguelito

Only the TIDAL native app on mac or windows or Audirvana on mac can do the first unfold, which is required by the DF to render MQA.

Understood. Thanks for the quick and helpful response.

[Toolio]

@Henry_McLeod

You will not. The Dragonfly is a renderer. That means it is dependant on software to do the first unfold, it then takes care of the second. Roon does not yet do any unfolding.

Thanks. I appreciate your help.