Multichannel audio endpoints

[Burkhardt_Petermann]

It depends:
I’ve a setup where I don’t need any DSP (also Dirac not needed, but available), because I’ve setup the whole multichannel system in an ITU-R BS 775 setting (four fullrange speakers + big center + subwoofer + acoustically room treatment).
So I really preferr native DSD also in multichannel…

[mitr (Kal Rubinson)]

OK. If you don’t need it, that’s fine.

[otinkyad]

Thanks very much to all who have provided input on my question (and apologies to @birnbaum that my query hijacked the thread

My stream of thought in trying to digest all of this information has gone something like the following. I’m putting this down here as a way of working through my own thoughts while also thanking everyone. Sorry if this is TMI or too stream-of consciousness:

My starting point:

I’ve been avoiding looking too deeply into (a) trying to get DSD into my Marantz pre/pro while also (b) trying to have it preserved as DSD within the Marantz without conversion to PCM. That’s because I had gathered that this was not possible if I still wanted bass management (I do) and low-frequency boosts (I do).

But then @Mike_LC very kindly explained:

@Mike_LC

The Denon does have a function to boost the low frequencies (0db 5db 10db and 15db) that only works with the analog inputs. I used that with the OPPO for SACD’s to recover the 10DB of bass that gets lost.

Ah, interesting, thank you! The reduced bass is exactly what has bothered me since I started listening to classical music as multichannel SACDs and/or multichannel DSD files. I’ve been addressing it by manually increasing the subwoofer levels under “Speaker Configuration”, which I’m pretty sure involves DSP (and hence DSD → PCM). But now I’ve found the analog low frequency boost function that you mentioned, which seems to also be on my Marantz. It’s this, right? And “7.1 CH IN” is the analog input mode:

Hmm, so maybe I can get a bass boost without incurring DSD → PCM conversion. But wait… can we be sure that this low frequency boost does not involve ADC – DAC…? (Not questioning your information, @Mike_LC which is very greatly appreciated – just wondering about how sure we can be of anything when it comes to pre-pros and receivers…)

And then:

@Burkhardt_Petermann

If you need a bassmanagement, then it doesn’t make send native DSD, because you’ll have in every case … decoding /transformation to PCM… It’s much easier (and cheaper) to use HDMI …

And:

@mitr

Any bass management (and/or other DSP) requires conversion to PCM (or some form of it) regardless of the device.

Right, that’s the understanding I’ve been slowly coming to…

But then:

@Michal_Borkowski

Set all your Denon speakers to small and set Crossovers. Then in bass management set LFE output to SW+Main. Set audio to Direct or Pure Direct. That will give you bass management without any internal A/D->D/A conversion for analog input. Also DSP processing will be disabled. It works for CD input but I’m not sure if for the others. Took me a while to sort that out with a rather average Denon support.

Thanks very much for this, @Michal_Borkowski ! I’ll definitely be interested in trying this and it would be great if I can get it to work! [But again, the little voice in my head, which has little understanding of audio processing, says… how sure can we be that there isn’t a hidden conversion in here…? Again, not questioning you either, @Michal_Borkowski – this just reflects my very limited understanding]

And:

@mitr

Yes and there’s also no need to abstain from conversion of DSD to PCM when the results justify it (as they often do). So many regard the conversion as major horror but, while the audibility of it is highly unlikely, the improvements wrought by bass management/DSP are usually clearly audible.

So then… I infer that there are a few options for me (other than upgrading speakers to all full range, which is infeasible):

1. Stop worrying about pure DSD and learn to live with and love the multichannel audio produced by my Marantz even if it’s PCM. Well, I already love it, just have to learn to live with it and get over grass-is-greener syndrome.

2. Invest in a multichannel DSD DAC (eg Okto), and adopt the methods explained by @Mike_LC and @Michal_Borkowski. In this case, I will still be getting bass management and LFE boost; and hopefully this will be while preserving DSD throughout the chain. Any SQ improvement over Option 1 will be from (presumably) avoiding PCM conversion (but this improvement is likely to be tiny, from what @mitr said), plus any improvements from the DAC being an improvement over the Marantz DACs.

3. Invest in a multichannel DSD DAC (eg Okto), avoid implementing the changes suggested by @Mike_LC and @Michal_Borkowski to avoid the risk that they contain a concealed conversion, and hopefully love the SQ of the DAC over that of Option 1. From what @Mike_LC said, this may be possible, although he may have all full-range speakers, which I don’t…

If you’re still reading, sorry for the ramble. But this helped me think through what the options are.

And lastly… I’ve been told that Roon can do DSP on DSD without PCM conversion:

@Rugby

@otinkyad

is there any DSP in Roon that can be done on a DSD file without triggering PCM

Yes. Go to the DSP setting and Enable Native DSD Processing. I just turned it on and was able to apply Various DSP options without a PCM conversion step. Turn it on and test the DSP options for yourself. Be aware, it will increase the needed computing power.

Is this consistent with other people’s experiences? (Not trying to start arguments, just trying to understand…)

Thanks all, sorry for the novel, and good night!

[mitr (Kal Rubinson)]

@Rugby

Go to the DSP setting and Enable Native DSD Processing. I just turned it on and was able to apply Various DSP options without a PCM conversion step. Turn it on and test the DSP options for yourself. Be aware, it will increase the needed computing power.

This is debatable and may be a semantic issue.

@otinkyad

Stop worrying about pure DSD and learn to live with and love the multichannel audio produced by my Marantz even if it’s PCM. Well, I already love it, just have to learn to live with it and get over grass-is-greener syndrome.

I think so but you have to convince yourself.

[Mike_LC (Mike)]

@otinkyad

Hmm, so maybe I can get a bass boost without incurring DSD → PCM conversion. But wait… can we be sure that this low frequency boost does not involve ADC – DAC…?

I believe the primary benefit of this feature is to allow recovery of the missing bass with the 7.1 analog inputs, plus 5 DB if Bass management is used, without changing the volume setting on the subs back and forth. I found articles on the issue years ago.

It’s a convenience feature, probably not a magic analog domain bass boost. Denon/Marantz support could provide that information but I have not tried to find out.

[otinkyad]

@Mike_LC many thanks again! BTW, yes, I’m seeing it as bass recovery (classical SACDs/DSD files are the only place I need it) rather than boost.

[Burkhardt_Petermann]

The sense of the “boost” is, that there is a difference in LFE between dts cds and dts on videos from 10 dB.
But: The most SACDs don’t use a LFE (only 4.0 or 5.0) and so you’ll not here any difference in the bass.

[otinkyad]

Ah, yes, thanks @Burkhardt_Petermann ! I’ve just been testing this, and my impression is consistent with what you pointed out. On a classical multichannel 5.1 SACD, I thought I could hear a difference when adjusting that setting; on a 5.0 SACD I didn’t think I heard a difference.

[birnbaum]

Thank-you for all the comments. Unfortunately, my question was hijacked from the original to an interesting conversation about base management and DSD. Can we return to original question, please, repeated here?:

> I am putting together a home theatre and I would like it capable of playing multichannel audio from Roon. I have decided on a Marantz preamp (AV7706). Would it be better to get a streamer and use the Marantz as a DAC, a streamer/DAC and just have the analogue outputs go into the Marantz? Whichever way I go, I am having trouble finding choices, so I would appreciate any recommendations for electronics.

Several clarifications. I am using as a Roon Core a Small Green Computer SonicTransporter i7 connected to my home network by ethernet. Since I have several Roon endpoints in other rooms, I have been running in this way and my intention was to continue, which would mean that if I do go with a streamer, I would need ethernet input.

Again, thank-you for any advice.

[mitr (Kal Rubinson)]

If the HDMI output of the Small Green Computer SonicTransporter i7 is active, I would just plug that into the Marantz.

[birnbaum]

I checked in with Andrew Gillis at Small Green Computer and learned that the HDMI on the sonicTransporter is not meant for this function and won’t work.

[ddean]

I would recommend a mini-pc (fanless; you don’t need very much CPU) and install RoonBridge on it using your choice of Windows or Linux. I recommend an Intel/AMD system for this, and not a Raspberry Pi or similar ARM-based system, because HDMI audio support on those is very hit and miss. (HDMI audio from computers is hit and miss in general, even Mac and PC, but ARM SBCs are even worse.) DSD will be converted to hi-res PCM, but unfortunately there’s no viable way around that currently over multichannel HDMI. (For stereo, a Bryston BDP-3 will work, albeit not cheaply.) You should be able to find something that works well for $100-200 or so. Some even plug straight into the HDMI input…

Good luck!

[RoonFan (CP)]

I am wondering also how to get multi-channel and DSD onto my AVR (in a “budget” way). I wonder if the following would work:

• Start with Intel NUC (or a good mini PC)
• For multichannel, connect HDMI to AVR
• For DSD, connect USB to external DAC (like SMSL or Topping that supports DSD512), and then from DAC to AVR via Analog route

There is a drawback, ie. switching between sources is required on the AVR, as Roon cannot trigger this switch.

Switching playback “zone” is also required on Roon, but a mobile app should be able to accomplish this quite easily. Have I missed anything?

[Geoff_Coupe]

I simply let Roon do the necessary conversion of multichannel DSD tracks over the HDMI connection to my Denon AVR…

Works equally well for stereo material:

[Henrik_Lampe]

Does this mean, that your Roon Core is connected by HDMI cable to your Denon AVR?

My Denon AVR is not near to my Core, so I am looking for a network connection…
And my Zidoo Z9X is Roon Ready but does not stream more than stereo with Roon.

[Geoff_Coupe]

You will only get multichannel via an HDMI connection to a Denon AVR. So if your AVR is not near your Core, you’re going to have to add a Roon Ready endpoint with an HDMI connection to your AVR.

This could be a mini PC with Windows and Roon Bridge, or even a ROCK/NUC (where the Core is not used, just the Roon Output component). Folks have tried using a RPi with Linux, but AFAIK, these combos still do not support multichannel over HDMI.

[jhwalker (John Walker)]

That’s basically what I have - Roon core connected via Ethernet / hub to NUC running Windows 11 + Roon Bridge, connected via HDMI to Denon AVR. Very nice solution.

For bonus points, add ASIO4All to bypass the Windows mixer completely