NAD/Bluesound Grouped Zones out of sync, stopping playing, and/or skipping tracks [Investigating]

Ettrig · July 8, 2023, 11:06pm

Roon Core Machine

NUC i5 16 GB DDR4

Networking Gear & Setup Details

UDM Pro, Unifi 48p PoE-switches

Connected Audio Devices

3x NAD CI580v2
1x Devialet Phantom 1

Number of Tracks in Library

0

Description of Issue

I have been writing about this before but got no solid response from Roon support.
NAD CI580v2 is Roon Ready certified, but it does not perform well at all.
Even playing a single zone + another Roon Device you end up with problems. (in this case I play with a Devialet Phantom)

NAD CI580v2 seems to struggle a ton with keeping in sync and to some extent can also stop at times.

Especially when playing Internet Radio (which I do a lot), I often have to try start a channel twice. First time it typically fails…

Another issue with NAD CI580v2 is that if you start grouping zones between devices, it just doesn’t work at all often… The only way for me to get it to work “grouped” well, is to make the groups in BlueOS instead of Roon. (if you group multiple zones in BlueOS they appear as one device in Roon).

This is not how I expect a Roon Ready 4x endpoint streamer to work.

I am very very disappointed with these NAD CI580v2s… I was looking for a 1unit rack-mountable streamer that couple supply 4 zones (12 zones in total) and therefore I got these 3 devices, but now I will need to reconsider getting some other streamers probably because this is just frustrating to the point where it’s almost unusable.

My network is rock solid and I run CAT6a cables to each device.

Checking the logs, it’s quite clear that each NAD CI580v2 zone ends up suffering from sync problems.
Example when playing 4 zones from NAD CI580v2 + 1 from Phantom.

07/08 23:01:19 Trace: [Living Room + Living room - Phantom + Glassed Porch + Kitchen + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] sync NAD CI580 (4): realtime=92399870653 rtt=500us offset=-1136129us delta=-923us drift=143390us in 91.427s (1568.361ppm, 5646.101ms/hr)
07/08 23:01:19 Trace: [Living Room + Living room - Phantom + Glassed Porch + Kitchen + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] sync NAD CI580 (4): realtime=92691039216 rtt=500us offset=-844960us delta=685us drift=326292us in 91.427s (3568.887ppm, 12847.993ms/hr)
07/08 23:01:19 Trace: [Living Room + Living room - Phantom + Glassed Porch + Kitchen + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] sync Devialet Phantom I Opéra de Paris: realtime=13146016346700 rtt=500us offset=13052479346us delta=558us drift=51us in 91.427s (0.562ppm, 2.022ms/hr)
07/08 23:01:19 Trace: [Living Room + Living room - Phantom + Glassed Porch + Kitchen + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] sync NAD CI580 (3): realtime=92362167808 rtt=500us offset=-1175832us delta=-587us drift=143917us in 91.428s (1574.112ppm, 5666.804ms/hr)
07/08 23:01:19 Trace: [Living Room + Living room - Phantom + Glassed Porch + Kitchen + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] sync NAD CI580 (2): realtime=92421928248 rtt=500us offset=-1116071us delta=-556us drift=143936us in 91.428s (1574.316ppm, 5667.536ms/hr)

Looking at the above log, it seems clear to me that the NAD-devices end up way more “out of sync” than the Phantom, and I suspect this is the problem here?..

I would highly appreciate if someone from Roon could give a real response regarding this, and perhaps poke NAD about this device? NAD CI580v2 should not be sold as Roon Ready based on how it works right now. Happy to provide any logs or whatever that can help investigate.

I am mainly streaming using Internet Radio or Tidal.

Psyclops · July 9, 2023, 6:43am

So after all that, went out of sync again tonight.

If you have access to back end info it happened for me about 5.15pm NZT and I disabled the group and turned off the M33.

CrystalGipsy · July 9, 2023, 7:48am

Have you tried playing with the master clock in the group. When I had issues with sync I had to play around to find the best endpoint to be the master they all slave to and had to play with the sync delay.

Ettrig · July 9, 2023, 2:10pm

I have tried to tweak the master clock parameter, but it doesn’t seem to help a lot, and I don’t think it should be needed when devices are Roon Ready?.. (perhaps I put to much trust into this certification?)

I have 12 zones from 3x NAD CI580v2 and I don’t always group them in the same ways, and because of this I see no good way to prioritize clock

If I run a stream for a while, music tends to “sync up” after a while, but at startup it’s very out of sync.

CrystalGipsy · July 9, 2023, 2:23pm

Taking a while to get all the clocks in sync then by sounds of it. Do they stay in sync once it’s reached?

BCBC · July 9, 2023, 11:28pm

July 9th 3:44 pm Pacific Time. Streaming from Qobuz.

Ryan_Caulfield · July 9, 2023, 11:43pm

Additional info: Now unable to play multiple zones at all with Roon. This is true whether playing music from my personal library or from Qobuz. I do not have any problems playing multiple zones from my personal library or internet radio when bypassing Roon and using BlueOS. Also, cannot transfer playback from one zone to the next in Roon. When trying to transfer zones I get the message “Too many failures. Stopping playback”. See image. Again, not an issue in BlueOS. Roon also crashes unexpectedly on occasion. This appears to be a Roon software problem. Your help is appreciated. Thanks.

Psyclops · July 10, 2023, 4:56am

And again 4.52pm streaming from Tidal.

Psyclops · July 10, 2023, 6:41am

Again at 6.40.
It seems to occur when transitioning to the next track - in time for the entire duration of a track and then starts the next out of sync.

Ettrig · July 10, 2023, 8:59pm

Trying to play with delay but can’t get it to work well anyway…

Also, the Bluesound zones can just “drop out” like this… when you try to play music.

It’s crap

Here is a little of the log when this (just) happened

07/10 20:57:30 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:30 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:30 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:30 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:30 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:31 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [12] {"samples":35966,"status":"Dropout"}
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:31 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:31 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:31 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:31 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:31 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [12] {"samples":22264,"status":"Dropout"}
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:31 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:31 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:31 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:31 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:31 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:32 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [12] {"samples":22022,"status":"Dropout"}
07/10 20:57:32 Trace: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] sync NAD CI580 (4) -> Devialet Phantom I Opéra de Paris result: Success
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:32 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:32 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:32 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:32 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:32 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [12] {"samples":22022,"status":"Dropout"}
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:32 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:32 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:32 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:32 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:32 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [12] {"samples":22022,"status":"Dropout"}
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:33 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:33 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:33 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:33 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connecting to 192.168.1.12:0
07/10 20:57:33 Error: [raat/tcpaudiosource] connect failed: Connection refused
07/10 20:57:33 Warn: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting + retrying
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [12] {"samples":22022,"status":"Dropout"}
07/10 20:57:33 Warn: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] Too many dropouts (>3s dropped out in the last 30s). Killing stream
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] too many dropouts. stopping stream
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] Endpoint Devialet Phantom I Opéra de Paris State Changed: Playing => Prepared
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Devialet Phantom I Opéra de Paris @ 192.168.1.60:41993] [raatclient] SENT [97985]{"request":"end_stream"}
07/10 20:57:33 Warn: [zone Living room - Phantom + NAD CI580 (4) + Office] Track Stopped Due to Slow Media
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer -> stream] All streams were disposed
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer -> stream -> endpoint] All streams were disposed
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer -> stream -> endpoint] All streams were disposed
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer -> stream -> endpoint] All streams were disposed
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: Attempting to play channel URL: icy://prem2.di.fm:80/techhouse?1c856a43a3912aca370ad160
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [zone Living room - Phantom + NAD CI580 (4) + Office] OnPlayFeedback StoppedEndOfMediaUnnatural
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [zone Living room - Phantom + NAD CI580 (4) + Office] OnPlayFeedback Stopped
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [zone Living room - Phantom + NAD CI580 (4) + Office] Canceling Pending Sleep
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [zone Living room - Phantom + NAD CI580 (4) + Office] Canceling Pending Sleep
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Living room - Phantom] [LowQuality, 24/44 AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [STOPPED @ 0:00] Darius Syrossian & Bushwacka - Akkabi Blue
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Living Room] [LowQuality, 24/44 AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [STOPPED @ 0:00] Darius Syrossian & Bushwacka - Akkabi Blue
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer] All streams were disposed
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Office] [LowQuality, 24/44 AAC => 24/44] [STOPPED @ 0:00] Darius Syrossian & Bushwacka - Akkabi Blue
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Devialet Phantom I Opéra de Paris @ 192.168.1.60:41993] [raatclient] GOT [97979] {"status":"Ended"}
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Devialet Phantom I Opéra de Paris @ 192.168.1.60:41993] [raatclient] GOT [97985] {"status":"Success"}
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer/raat] Endpoint NAD CI580 (4) State Changed: Playing => Prepared
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] SENT [20]{"request":"end_stream"}
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [12] {"status":"Ended"}
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: [NAD CI580 (4) @ 192.168.1.187:41813] [raatclient] GOT [20] {"status":"Success"}
07/10 20:57:33 Debug: [raat/tcpaudiosource] disconnecting
07/10 20:57:33 Info: sleep 0ms after flush
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer] Playing: channel://icy%3a%2f%2fprem2.di.fm%3a80%2ftechhouse%3f1c856a43a3912aca370ad160
07/10 20:57:33 Trace: Got ICY Stream Title [Darius Syrossian & Bushwacka - Akkabi Blue]
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer]     Open Result (Playing):Result[Status=Success]
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [Living room - Phantom + Living Room + Office] [zoneplayer] Aborting play because track changed
07/10 20:57:33 Warn: [streammediafile] error reading stream: Unable to read data from the transport connection: Software caused connection abort.
07/10 20:57:33 Info: [audio/env] [zoneplayer] All streams were disposed
07/10 20:57:45 Info: [stats] 27328mb Virtual, 1638mb Physical, 763mb Managed, 389 Handles, 90 Threads
07/10 20:58:00 Info: [stats] 27304mb Virtual, 1638mb Physical, 755mb Managed, 389 Handles, 87 Threads
07/10 20:58:15 Info: [stats] 27280mb Virtual, 1637mb Physical, 756mb Managed, 389 Handles, 87 Threads
07/10 20:58:30 Info: [stats] 27272mb Virtual, 1637mb Physical, 762mb Managed, 387 Handles, 85 Threads

BCBC · July 11, 2023, 12:06am

It has happened twice today but is remedied in BluOS by selecting Roon Ready for output. Until it happens again…

benjamin · July 11, 2023, 12:18am

Hey @Psyclops,

Thanks for providing the timestamp.

A few follow-up questions for you:

Do you have different MUSE settings applied to different zones? Or to the group as a whole? If you disable MUSE, does the issue still occur?

Did you have any resync delay settings that may have been wiped with the NAD update? What are your master clock settings at? Which device is set for clock prioritization?

Are there any resync delay settings enabled on one of the zones?

JAM · July 11, 2023, 3:11am

Different user here but I have some similar equipment and the same out-of-sync issue that wasn’t there before the latest BluOS update.

The problem is there with or without MUSE activated. I have no relay delay settings and I have experienced the issue with clock prioritization set for two different devices (NAD T758v3i and Cambridge Audio CXNv2) as well as with no prioritization.

Psyclops · July 11, 2023, 7:32am

Dont have Muse enabled and all DSP is turned off.
I checked the clock settings yesterday, had never needed to before this all started, moved the M33 to highest priority and left the Powernode at default.
There is a 100ms delay on both zones for when I am using my portable BT speaker with my android phone as the end point.

Another thing that I observed is the sync issue at 6.40 happened between an MQA track and an FLAC track - couldn’t reproduce it though.

BCBC · July 13, 2023, 3:37pm

July 13, 8:31 am Pacific Time. Qobuz stream.

Andreas_Baumann · July 18, 2023, 9:48am

Roon Core Machine

Proxmox Virtual Environment 8.0.3, Debian 12 LXC Container, Roon 2.0 (build 1299)
4 Cores, 6 GB Memory

Networking Gear & Setup Details

virtualized OPNsense
Cisco CBS250-24P-4X Switch
Ubiquiti U6-Pro Access Point

Connected Audio Devices

2 x Dutch& Dutch 8c (Living Room, wired, D&D Firmware 2.3.15)
1 x Bluesound PULSE 2i (Kitchen, WiFi, Bluesound Firmware 3.20.52)
1 x ELAC Discovery Z3 (Bedroom, WiFi, ELAC firmware 1.0 (build 56) stable)
1 x Roon Extend v3.2.0 → Raspberry Pi 4/Topping D30 Pro/A30 PRO (Headphone Rig, wired)
1 x RoPieeeXL 2023.05.1 → Raspberry Pi 3/RME Babyface Pro (Homeoffice, wired)

Number of Tracks in Library

32’851 tracks

Description of Issue

Since a few weeks I have a problem with sync when I group living room and kitchen. Can’t say when that exactly started. There were updates for Roon, Bluesound and Dutch&Dutch.
The group loses sync when the sample rate of the music changes. If I play an album or radio and the sync works, the system does not lose it anymore.
I use Convolution filters for the living room and the kitchen. These were created with Focus Fidelity Filter Designer. I have found that in case of loss of sync, deactivating and reactivating the convolution filter on one of the systems will bring back the sync.

connor · July 19, 2023, 8:44pm

Hi @Ryan_Caulfield, @Ettrig

Thank you for your patience, as your long owed a response here.

We have merged your thread with other users’ who are experiencing similar grouped playback or sync issues with NAD devices.

For everyone here: is your NAD CI 580, your NAD M33, or other endpoints with which you are experiencing sync issues on the most recent firmware?

We’ll keep an eye out for your response.

Ettrig · July 19, 2023, 10:23pm

All my NAD CI580v2 are on BluOS 3.20.52 which seems to be the latest.

Thanks for looking into this.

Detlev_Hackenberg · July 20, 2023, 11:15am

Hello,

I have been experiencing the same sync issues between my BluOS devices (NAD C 658 and Bluesound Node) when grouping them in Roon. After years of no issues this started roughly one and a half months ago, don’t know for sure.

Is this still being looked into?

Thanks!