It’s not a Roon problem at all. Roon streams Tidal, Qobuz, and local files. I suspect the new Tidal HiRes Flac integration will be accomplished anytime now. I cut back my Tidal subscription from Master to Hi-Fi because I get high definition from Qobuz for $10.83 and not going to pay Tidal $20 for the same thing.
Well… kind of. Roon doesn’t stream Amazon, and doesn’t integrate with HEOS in HiRes, so for me, it’s a Roon problem.
It’s also a HEOS problem, which I intend to solve with WiiM if they don’t get Roon certified pretty quickly. .
And, interestingly I just cancelled my Qobuz subscription because over and over I didn’t find what I was looking for in HiRes (or even at all) where I did more often with Tidal.
Plus, I prefer the look and feel of the Tidal app, and I’ve already built some playlists in it and downloaded music.
I just landed on the WiiM Pro Plus after returning the Bluesound Node. Half the price and I found that the BlueOS app itself was throttling the quality quite a lot, where if I streamed from my phone (via USB) it had full res, but the app defaulted to 16/44.1 or never “found” the hires versions.
Perhaps that was a challenge with Tidal also.
They are not throttling anything they just have not updated yet. It’s not easy to change over when a supplier changes their whole system. They changed without letting anybody know in advance and then had no code at all for any 3rd party to access it for months and months, then they did Tidal Connect first and only in the last 5-8 weeks released a new APi to access them. Some vendors are more nimble to update firmware others are not when they have a much larger range of products in the market like Bluesound, plenty of others still behind to.
Roon itself is integrated with Tidal in a completely different way so can’t just drop this new code in. It hosts its own database of Tidal and Qobuz so that has to change to adopt the new way it does stuff to, plus all the other work that was in progress. It’s not something that can be rushed.
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You can play Tidal hi-res with Bluesound hardware now through Tidal Connect.
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But interestingly, not through it’s own BlueOS…
Because of
I guess it’s a Roon forum, so people are defending the platform, but to the person logging in and checking it out, there are two options…. The first is to take my Tidal app and press play. I get 24/192 or MQA or Master or whatever they call it that second.
The second is to use Roon, which will go to the Tidal interface and extract 16/44.1 and play it. The use of Roon in the chain reduces the resolution by quadruple (or whatever). That is what I mean by Roon throttling it.
It’s not necessarily a hit. It’s just a current fact.
They also don’t support Apple DRM, or Amazon. Both facts.
I’m not married to any specific technology, though I am a bit married to the (slightly) expensive Marantz pre/pro that runs HEOS. It used to be the coolest thing in the world until I realized that it too was the thing throttling Tidal down to 16/44.1. I naively thought that the HiRes content wasn’t available, not that it wasn’t available to HEOS. It took getting into headphones for me to learn that, plugged directly into a DAC and seeing the same content go to 24/192.
Hell, Apple is throttling too on Bluetooth. None of this is intuitive, and I was convincing myself that I simply couldn’t hear the difference between 24/192 and 16/44.1 because there was no difference while streaming Bluetooth. It also became very clear that my vinyl sounded way better than digital.
Then, when I plugged it in directly, the whole scope of HiRes opened back up, and I can’t tell the difference between vinyl and 24/192 for the most part, but 16/44.1 sounds like hell now.
It’s all a steep learning curve, and right now Roon is the long pole in the tent. The WiiM app isn’t horrible, and currently streams basically everything. The HEOS app is even better, streams everything, doesn’t require a separate box, but throttles Tidal, which is my main digital source.
Roon did earn its keep last night when I started integrating the Muse into it. I was able to add a confluence curve on the EQ, add cross feed and kind of fell in love with that whole deal. With Tidal>Roon/Muse>WiiM>Jotunheim>headphones (a chain needing two services ($40/mo) a $250 unit, a $600 unit) it now finally sounds as good as my $107 Q5K that’s the size of a 9V battery and portable…. but way more powerful… basically what I’ve been looking for. If the Q5K had more power, it would have been the end of the line for the search having Tidal>Q5K>Headphones as the whole chain.
As it is, I’m happy. I wish Roon worked off line because a lot of my playlists are developed for family boating adventures where we have no signal, so I need my music local on the phone. But., I’ll just use Tidal for that and have some duplication of effort.
I can wait out the near future and see if HEOS integrates with high res, otherwise I’ll just stream via cable when I listen to the main system from an iPad with the notifications shut off or something. If months pass, I will get another WiiM and be done.
This has been explained more than once. Roon is in the process of integrating with the new Tidal format. If you don’t want to wait for that to be completed, you can use Qobuz or your local files or don’t use Roon.
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No one is defending Roon here, they are just pointing out the facts around the current situation, how it came about and why there is not an instant solution from Roon.
Thanks for clarifying what you meant by “Roon throttling it” … to many this term implies a deliberate act to reduce the quality… where as in fact Roon are working hard (with Tidal) to enable this new hi-res content to be available to it’s customers.
This is not speculation on my part, Roon have confirmed this and are as keen to complete and deliver it as we are in wanting it.
It will happen, I suspect sometime in Q1 next year, keep an eye open in Early Access it will be there first.
In the meantime, I hope you are enjoying the holidays and heats to a great 2024.
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And I have “liked” the posts and understand the situation… but it doesn’t change the current limitations of the various platforms for a new user.
To me… Tidal seems to work fine on its own, and it’s where I get 90% of my digital content, and have since its release. Tidal doesn’t seem to integrate very well with anything outboard of it with few exceptions. The WiiM seems content with sourcing from Tidal at HiRes, but that’s it. HEOS won’t do it, Roon won’t do it and the BlueOS won’t either. (You can stream straight from Tidal to BlueOS for full res though).
We can fault Tidal for not integrating with others, and Amazon, and whoever else… but the situation remains currently what it is. If you haven’t invested in an ecosystem, these are the limitations. Period.
I have learned a lot in this thread. I have gotten my initial question answered, which is “why won’t Tidal stream HiRes on Roon” and the answer is “it will, but not to HEOS… yet… maybe”. Further questions of Amazon support and others were answered simply with “not supported”.
Got it. I understand the limitations. I’m still deciding whether the ecosystem is of value to me or not. They may be completely explainable limitations… but the hard work of people on both sides of the equation aside, they remain limitations.
The Muse DSP certainly is of great value, and might offset many of the (perceived) negatives of the system, integration and streaming politics etc… the PEQ for headphones might actually be a higher sound improvement than going from 16/44.1 to 24/192 in all reality. Of course, I greedily want both, but if I just go by my ears, I think that the throttled signal with PEQ is preferable to the raw 24/192 sound in my headphones.
If you want to play hi-res Tidal, Qobuz, or local files, Roon will work for you. You just have to wait for Roon to finish the Tidal integration that was caused by their shift from MQA to hi-res Flac. If you’re not willing to wait for that or want to use Amazon or Apple Music or some other source, Roon is not going to work.
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This is incorrect for mqa. Roon can do the first unfold to 88.1 or 96 or it can pass it to an mqa dac for full unfold to 192, same as the native tidal app. We presume it will still work that way and also natively play max/flac at full resolution once roon implements it.
You also mentioned using a Marantz pre/pro. Keep in mind that, unless something has changed, all input including 192 hi-res is resampled to 48k if you use Audyssey for room correction, bass/sub management, dynamic eq, etc., unless you use direct mode to bypass all those nice features you paid for. So 96 or 192 hi-res inputs are sort of overkill.
You claim to hear a lot of differences that are highly subjective or unproven. But if you find a setup that sounds good to you on your gear in your room, that’s all that matters.
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You are absolutely correct. I only use “Pure Direct” for music. I use the Audessy features for home theatre. I’ve tried a separate preamp for the 2ch side and skipping the Marantz altogether, but it actually sounds comparable to the best I’ve put in there when on Pure Direct, with a lot more features otherwise on tap, like multi room, remote control, HEOS etc….
Basically, it isn’t a weak link currently except for HEOS not allowing Tidal to stream at HiRes.
All of the room correction and crossover management is being done by a MiniDSP outboard DSP for the mains. I’m running four separate monoblock amps for the 2ch system, so I used that as a good way to split the signal and do some dialing in of slopes and curves.
So, you are running a DAC-ADC-DAC redigitization chain by passing through the miniDSP unit. That is not any better than 48 kHz sample rate conversion internal to the Marantz.
AJ
@George_Inskeep Unless this is totally impossilbe, simply puttting the server in the same room as the AVR will solve all your problems because you will not need HEOS anymore. I have a Denon AVR and have no need for HEOS, because my Roon Core (NUC) is right next to it. I think Tidal HiRes compatibility via Roon will not require a long wait.
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Yes… and this had concerned me on paper.
In reality, it sounds incredible, and switching between it and the electronic crossover (that was delivered with the Snell’s in the 90’s) I couldn’t hear any difference quality wise at all, and a massive improvement in dynamics, performance, balance and overall “sound”.
I don’t know why, but it doesn’t appear to degrade the sound at all.
Secondly, when listening through it, you can clearly, clearly hear the difference in depth between CD and Phono, and the difference between airplay to HEOS and plugged in directly via USB/HDMI.
So, even if it is getting a hand in with some overall degradation, any degradation or resolution changes prior to it is very, very impactful.
It had occurred to me to get a Roon Nucleus and put it in the rack, but the server is in my office on my desktop. Not moving, and a floor and half a house away.
The difference, especially in headphones, between 16/44.1 and Master 24/192 (straight… not “unfolded” or otherwise upsampled) is enough to startle a sleeping dog awake. It’s not a little different… it’s WAY different, and in my experience, with my buddies and family, not subjective. Easily picked out blindly, and extremely quickly.
I’m not sure a non-decoded MQA is supposed to sound the same as a 16/44.1 flac file. The MQA started out as a higher resolution file and got compressed in the MQA process down to 44.1 or 48. It was never intended to be played without MQA decoding and rendering back to it’s original high resolution self, AFAIK.
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