Speaking of thin gauge aluminium headwear, this is IMO the best narrative of the COVID era ever to have been composed:
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The AirLens is a $2000 streamer which doesn’t even have a USB output. The value proposition, or rather lack thereof, seems to me to speak for itself; so I’m not sure further comments are necessary. The marketing notion being pushed, of USB being “noisy”, has been thoroughly debunked in various places, including this forum, many times. What else is there left to say?
I should also point out that voicing a different perspective on, or explanation of, various things is not an “attack”. Just a different opinion. Where one person might see an indefatigable hustler, another might see a good man. And they might both be correct.
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It’s a PowerPlant P300, and it is in Central Texas.
Exactly. It is a perfectly fine standard for internal connections over carefully designed PCB traces. It is not designed for external connections, has no error checking, and locks the receiver to source’s clock. It has, as an external connection, all the “advantages” of S/PDIF, (i.e. nothing) while costing more. And looking at all the people flailing trying to connect various I2S sources and DACs, you basically have less than 50/50 chance of two specific devices playing nicely with each other.
There are quite a few companies that disagree vehemently, while selling even more expensive cables. They also have very “convincing” arguments as to why you need them.
Good Lord, no, but there also is no such thing as “USB Sound”. Now, any particular device may produce different (to any arbitrary degree) sound from different inputs, and limitations of connectors come into play, too. For all we know you might just prefer extra jitter you get for free over S/PDIF vs. USB which would be clocked by the RME.
The company does a pretty good job of it all by itself, but as I’ve mentioned, I did hear the device in question, and found it to be as useful as the one PS Audio product I still have, the PowerPlant which, depending on the quality of what you plug into it, ranges between “well, it doubles your power consumption, but at least does not make things worse” to “mm, it actually does make things worse.” Airlens, at least, other than forcing you to use two of the worst possible connectors to the DAC, does not have any audible effect.
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Nope, I am not interested in this AirLens or whichever device that reclocks output stage! You see, my streamer/DAC is a Linn Klimax DSM/3, and I believe that it has a very accurate, high quality clock, why do I need to re-clock it from a less accurate clock.
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@moderators AGREED! Thanks @Graeme_Finlayson cheers
Just to bring this back to life, I’ve decided to test what should be my noisiest system – a Peachtree Nova 150 plugged into an old HP Notebook with almost-working keyboard with an Office Depot USB cable. HP is connected to Ethernet with a USB Ethernet adapter. Output to not super-efficient Mordaunt-Short bookshelf speakers. Everything using stock power cables and power supplies, of course. Bulk Ethernet cable in the walls, generic D-Link/Netgear/Linksys switches and routers. File is stored on a Synology NAS (that also hosts my Roon core). There is a Panamax power conditioner/surge protector, for surge protection duties (and for switching on the sub on trigger from the Peachtree) but no fancy audiophile thingies.
Played @Graeme_Finlayson 's -120dB test track. At maximum volume I can barely hear the test track. There is no noise that I can hear (if there’s something at 18KHz, I don’t hear it; neither does anyone else here above the age of 30).
For reference, a PowerNode feeding even less efficient speakers does not reproduce the test tone audibly at all. There’s no noise either though.
A Rose 250, with somewhat raised preamp output level, feeding an old Yamaha HT super-receiver (I think last or one of the last super-receivers made back in the days), in analog direct mode, playing to slightly more sensitive M&K speakers in direct analog mode reproduces the test tone quite loudly. Again, with no noise to speak of. This one gets the file through 3 switches, too.
A Rose 520 at full volume does not produce anything audible (I am slightly disappointed here, I expected it would, and that one is plugged in probably most efficient floor-standing speakers I have), but again, no noise. That one doesn’t even have a power conditioner, just a Brickwall surge protector.
People are certainly free to believe anything they want, but my subjective test just confirm that the problem of noise (unless you are injecting analog noise at audible frequencies into output stage) is, generally, BS with anything semi-competently designed, and that Uncle Paul is, again, selling an imaginary solution to an imaginary problem. For very real money.
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What exactly is meant by noise in this context? To make these conversations more meaningful, it should proberly require definition. I dont have an answer. but the audio industry generelly refer to interference such as RFI and EMI as noise entering components. If this is the case? surely trying to measure “noise” on a dB scale is not meaningful. Can better shielding and design of network components reduce the impact of EMI / RFI entering DAC’s and thus improve sound quality, relative to poorly implemented or designed components with no consideration for EMI and RFI rejection. I am not the expert and dont make any claims, but would like to hear from the expers in this regard.
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Anything other than the signal.
See above.
The only meaningful way is to reference the noise level relative to the signal, and the logarithmic scale nicely corresponds to the way our auditory sense works.
Yes, but the question really is about the audibility of said interferences.
It just does not make too much sense to over engineer a product, unless everyone suffers from OCD and is willing to pay any price.
Manufacturers have to comply with regulations and standards, and even need to consider noise generated within the equipment, so you’d be hard pressed to find „components with no consideration“
BTW, it’s sufficient to use the superordinate term EMI, for electromagnetic interference, since radio frequency interference is just a subset and contextually inclusive.
For reference, I’ve been working in electronics research, development and production with the responsibility to generate and transform schematics into real products with the requisite certifications for most international markets.
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Also, note that in the case of digital signals - the types of signals the components mentioned in the subject exchange - the SNR has zero effect on the data, as long as it is not high enough to cause unrecoverable errors. The level of noise that could cause such errors is way higher than what is usually found in a home environment.
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Thanks for your detailed response.
Even in the many industrial environments I’ve worked in, relatively mundane digital communication systems still transfer data flawlessly.
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The reason there’s so much confusion in digital audio, which certain vendors exploit, is that DACs bridge physically between digital and analog, so it can happen, and indeed it happens with less well-designed DACs, that incoming digital signals may be bit-perfect, but physically able to interfere with the analog side of the DAC. But as you have explained carefully before, such poor behavior should be apparent in objective tests. Archimago is IMO a very good source on these matters, and they have shown with extensive measurements that even budget equipment can perform extremely well, wiping away much “high-end” obfuscation in the process.
I also suspect that some of USB audio’s bad rep might be due to buggy USB receiver firmware in some past DACs. Those who have been on this forum for a while may remember the long-drawn incident where some USB DACs would glitch and crash because vendors had used buggy reference source code for the USB receiver chip they were using. I can’t imagine how many other bugs, with more subtle effects, might be hiding there.
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There aren’t a lot of “subtle” effects to be had, in the digital world. I imagine we’d be hearing about any such.
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A USB receiver is a realtime processor. Having done a (teeny) bit of realtime digital audio in prehistory, I can see how certain realtime processing bugs could lead to occasionally corrupted I2S output, such as dropped or repeated samples.
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Sure. But the ability to scrutinize and complain about problems has mushroomed since that prehistory. Logic analyzers for $10? Extensive deep-in-the-weeds conversations all over various social media platforms, like this astonishing 258-page thread on Head-Fi?
I’m convinced we’d be hearing about these things if they were happening, just as we heard about the XMOS U208 bug.
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I would suggest you check out The Hifi podcast with Darren and Duncan. About — The HiFi Podcast with Darren & Duncan
Unlike the Sonos forum-like posters on this thread, Darren Myers has an actual EE degree, awards for his products (analog product of the year by Stereophile), and recently was hired as the VP of Engineering for Parasound.
I realize there is no amount of facts, logic, or experience that can convince anyone on this thread to believe that there is more to sound than what can be measured with a 1KHz test tone.
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As an example of what you’re practicing here, let me also just pick from the quoted website whatever fits my opposing point in the argument, like so:
Duncan … is an experienced DIYer when it comes to audio equipment and speakers … working as the Retail Sales Manager of Boulder’s PS Audio … He is a … cable designer … a testing technician for the world’s largest online re-seller of high end audio, The Music Room …
So that makes Duncan a capacity in all things audio without agenda - everyone should follow his recommendations and take his insights for gospel?
For the record, there is more to sound that can be measured, namely a full comprehensive set of measurements - you knew that, right?
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This is a strawman argument. I never said trust and certainly not take anything as gospel.
Those are your words. I only encouraged you to listen and make up your own mind. If your qualifications and experience are superior please enlighten us. Or maybe approach it from the perspective that you might learn something new?
There is no “comprehensive” set of measurements that applies to your room, your setup, and your taste in music, or listening volume. Music reproduction is in the early stages of development. Digital even more so.
For the record, when I hear an accomplished engineer say something I disagree with, I don’t treat it as gospel or truth, but it carries more weight than the arguments I’ve read here in this post.
“Every truth has two sides; it is as well to look at both, before we commit ourselves to either.”
-Aesop
Not being a reader of Sonos forums, I don’t know what you mean by that, but it sure sounds like a scattershot ad-hominem attack. I suggest we refrain from attempting to characterize other members of this forum.
On the other hand, characterizing podcasts is another matter. The two folks on the podcast you mentioned both work for, or previously worked for, PS Audio. PS Audio is a company that many of us regard as questionable, due to their long history of questionable products and questionable marketing tactics by their CEO. It’s just a point of view many of us have. And choosing to work for said questionable company seems to many of us like a questionable choice in and of itself. The podcast you reference, by two PS Audio people, would be hard to trust, for many of us. We suspect there might be questionable claims, marketing disguised as pseudo-facts.
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Sonos is for users who are value-conscious and looking for a simple and easy-to-use solution. Roon is for those of us who want to eke out the most from our systems and are willing to learn, listen, and be open minded.
I find the ad hominem attacks on Paul and PS Audio distasteful, uninformed, and close-minded. This is coming from someone who has heard but can’t justify their cost. Paul is a pillar of our community and someone that I have a lot of respect for. He’s a lover of roon, and all things audio. His books have taught me a lot about getting the most from my systems. Could you please enlighten me on this “long list of questionable products” that you have personal experience with vs. Amir’s poorly constructed “comprehensive tests”?
The Fox and the Grapes - Aesop
Once upon a time, there was a fox who was very hungry. He was walking through the forest when he saw a beautiful bunch of ripe grapes hanging high on a vine. The fox wanted the grapes very much, but he couldn’t reach them.
The fox tried to jump up and reach the grapes, but he couldn’t reach them. He tried to climb the vine, but it was too high. The fox tried everything he could think of, but he still couldn’t reach the grapes.
Finally, the fox gave up. He was tired and hungry, and he didn’t want to try anymore. He turned and walked away.
As the fox was walking away, he said to himself, “Those grapes were probably sour anyway.”
Moral of the story: It is easy to despise what you cannot get.
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