I wonder if streaming and much larger libraries make levelling a more widespread issue than it might have been in the past? I know that on the default -14 LUFS I also have more levelling problems with my pattern of listening than I would like, and settled on “auto” as the best of a bad job. I am pretty sure the default used to be much lower, maybe -23 LUFS. I just cannot remember. I have changed to -23 LUFS for speaker listening but still prefer -14 LUFS for headphone listening, even if I am fiddling with volume. I’ll see how I get on.
1 Like
Are you saying that when you click on the link to a post I made, you can’t read it? It has had 516 views since 2020. I’m posting a screenshot of it here just in case it’s been made invisible:
No. I can read the link your original post and your screenshot. I just cannot see any discussion. All I can see is 518 views and then it was closed. I don’t think was one of the viewers, or if I was I cannot remember.
My question is, how your post relates to this thread. In your original post you have target LUFS set to -14. This thread is about the need to set it to anything between -16 and -23 for better results, especially if you have a lot of modern masters. Did you ever try that? Was the result the same or better?
I guess I was responding to @Torben_Rick’s post Questions about Volume Levelling - #5 by Torben_Rick saying he found he still had to adjust levels when leveling was active, and not to the OP’s questions. But it doesn’t really matter what the leveling types are and how to use them and what the proper level should be if roon doesn’t apply the right correction to play two recordings at the same loudness level.
1 Like
In my instance (I am the OP), I like to listen to my aforementioned Night Tracks playlist as I go to sleep, hence the need for volume levelling. I would not use it for sitting down and listening to music, or ‘critical listening’ as I believe the audiophiles term it. I would consider volume levelling in the car, but then I would be using ARC - does that have volume levelling I wonder?
1 Like
IIRC, -23 LUFS is the standard target for television/video broadcast while -14 is the standard target for music playback. But I don’t recall where I learned that.
1 Like
Leveling is not only useful, but required if you’re trying to evaluate different releases of an album. So to when comparing redbook versus hires versus dsd versus anything else. Comparisons are invalid if they’re made without compensating for different loudness levels. Louder always sounds better. (Well, almost always.)
When comparing releases in roon, one must right click and read the “file info” for each track to see the replaygain values and then adjust the volume when switching tracks. This is a pain, of course. Leveling should do this.
So. Did you try different target LUFS values? Roon prioritizes clipping over levelling so in general this thread has concluded that much lower target LUFS values than -14 will be needed with libraries with a mix of old and modern masters. I would say that different rules apply for broadcasting, normal listening and audiophile listening comparing masters. I don’t think the standards were designed with that in mind. You can try anything between -14 and -25. I tried them all in the past and seem to remember settling on -19 or -21 LUFS. I use an old Krell integrated as a pre-amp so it matters to me where I have to physically set the volume and that was probably why I didn’t set LUFS at -23.
I rarely compare masters but I do play a lot of shuffles and playlists and it can be pretty random which masters turn up. I don’t know why I now have it set at the default of -14 LUFS. I definitely have issues. Must have been reset on a reinstall and I never changed it back. I have largely given up on support posts so I have just been living with it. Auto worked best I found @ -14 LUFS. Glad I stumbled on this thread and I am now trying -23 but might slip it back to -21 LUFS again.
What target LUFS have you set?
-14LUFS and Album
Torben
That test album is also available on Qobuz streaming.
I set LUFS to -23 and Auto. Roon levels all tracks to -16.5dB.
However, perceived volume is lower for each track as LUFS is increased. I’m not sure what is being tested. I assumed that roon would level the tracks so they all played at the same volume. That is clearly not happening.
1 Like
You may not see this because you are blocking me, but if you want Roon to level tracks within an album you need to set it to Tracks, not Auto.
2 Likes
It’s sort of a de-facto standard that sort of works for most popular music. The major streaming services use a variety of ‘targets’. Have a look at the AES papers that discuss the issues trying to get the industry to move to a more sensible -23.
In general, classical recordings are much more likely to be around -23, and have much higher dynamic range.
It probably does, within the constraints that have been flagged up.
Note that the tracks are in sets of three, each with the same LUFS, ie average level, but with different dBTP, ie peak level. This will affect what Roon actually does.
I’m using a target of -18 LUFS and Track volume leveling for the LUFS TEST album. The perceived loudness is identical across all tracks. Leveling values I see:
- -11.5 dB
- -10.6 dB
- -9.6 dB
- -7.6 dB
- -6.7 dB
- -5.7 dB
- -3.6 dB
- -2.7 dB
- -1.7 dB
- +2.2 dB
- +3.1 dB
- +4.1 dB
- +13.0 dB
- +13.9 dB
- +14.9 dB
Based on this test (and what I heard), Roon’s volume leveling seems to be working perfectly.
For the types of music I listen to most often, a target of -18 LUFS and Auto has been a good compromise. If I routinely mixed classical and pop music in the same playlists, I might prefer -23 LUFS instead. But, I never do that. When I’m listening to classical, it’s almost always an entire album at a time. 
What I appreciate about Roon is that we have more options than just On or Off for volume leveling.
3 Likes
THX David for sharing you experience.
I am testing you settings right now.
You use “Auto” - but why is there such a big different between “Auto” and “Track”?
Track:
Auto:
Torben
Different services use different LUFS, there is no one rule fits all. Spotifty gives the user 3 choices. Apple Music is -14db LUFS, Qobuz I think is -18dbs it matches to my own files which use their own RG tags and are -18db LUFS
1 Like
There are two levels for each album, track gain and album gain. Auto should use the correct gain based on if your playing the whole album or its just a single track in a playlist or the queue. They will be different as with album gain its one level adjustment applied to all tracks as you don’t want album tracks all the same level as quiet songs should be quiet songs and loud songs loud songs. Its an average across all tracks to meet the chose LUFS target. Track gain is taking each track and matching it to the chosen LUFS target so when playing a playlist of different tracks from different albums they all match to same target LUFS so you should not have to adjust the levels. The difference in album and track gain can be quite different.
3 Likes
Because Auto and Tracks do very different things when playing an album?