Roon shuffle not random with Qobuz playlists - Why not?

[BogFog]

Roon Core Machine

Music/ROON server:

sonicTransporter i5 with 2tb SSD

running latest version of their 2.8

Network Player:

Sonore Orendu also running latest 2.8

Networking Gear & Setup Details

Verizon FIOS 1GB internet service

Router: Asus GT AX11000

sonictransporter is hardwired ethernet CAT 8 from Router

Connected Audio Devices

FIOS ONT to router CAt 8 ethernet

Router to sonicTransporter, CAT 8 ethernet

Sonore network player receives fiber connection from 10Gtek fiber to ethernet converter. Converter receives ethernet via Trendnet switch, which is connected to the ASUs router.

Black Ice DAC receives signal from the Sonore via USB

DAC feeds amp via RCA analog, etc etc.

I control ROON/QoBuz via my Iphone ROON app, or from my Macbook Pro. And use ROON ARC in my car.

Number of Tracks in Library

My library consist of numerous Qobuz playlists, most maxed out at 1000 per. And I have some ripped cd tracks on the SonicTransporter. Roon hompage indicates that I have 2042 albums, 26551 tracks.

Description of Issue

I just stream Qobuz playlists through Roon. Occasional ripped cd tracks from my server. So, pretty simple requirements to date.

Requirement: Play my Qobuz playlist contents randomly!

Issue example: I launch a playlist or two every day and set it to shuffle the max 1000 tracks on a Qobuz playlist and just let it play for 10-12 hours. During this time and/or in the ensuing few days, it is clear that this “shuffle” is not random. I will hear some of the same songs multiple times during this time, while others not for days, weeks or longer. It would seem that with 1000 track playlists, I’d not hear repeats or only minimal repeats for awhile. But that is seemingly not the case.

I also notice that it sometimes focuses on some of the artists represented in my playlists more than others. I will note that, “Wow, I guess today is Bowie, Echo & the Bunneymen, REM and T. Heads” day…

I am also concerned that if the “algorithm” detects repeated plays, that it then decides I really like these songs, and then serves them back to me in even more frequency–some kind of algorithm-induced self-fulfilling, endless loop…

It is very weird and annoying. I want truly random. Not a roonBOT variant.

Any ideas on why this is all happening, how to fix? Also, Is there a way for me to gather song played frequency data on the above?

Thanks!

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

I don’t know if Roon does something special with Qobuz playlists but I want to point out that true randomness precisely does not mean no repetitions, and that it’s very difficult for humans to distinguish randomness from inherent patterns purely by casual observation - that’s why statistics was invented! A truly random choice could play the same song a thousand times in a row - very unlikely, but could happen. More likely it could just happen to play the same song twice - randomly but probably never desired.

What we probably want in shuffle is that it’s not really random but has guards against repetition and tries to play songs in an evenly distributed manner. Whether the Roon algorithm does that or has some undesired weighting, that I don’t know.

[BogFog]

Thanks Suedkiez. Noted. Anyone else have any ideas?

[connor]

Hi @BogFog,

Thank you for your patience in awaiting a staff response.

We’ll need to see an example of your Queue history to investigate this further. This will also provide the data you requested in your question below. Roon doesn’t contain granular analytics at the track level in the “What You’ve Been Listening To” section of the Homepage, although you can see general by-artist and by-album summaries. To see track frequency, you’ll need to export the dataset and manipulate it in external software like Excel.

@BogFog

Also, Is there a way for me to gather song played frequency data on the above?

You can export previously queued items (so long as you haven’t cleared the queue) by selecting all in the Queue page and then clicking “Export to Excel.” If you’ve been adding these playlists via “Play All,” then all 1000 tracks for any playlist will be in the Queue.

Please submit this exported .CSV file to us after compressing it (zip) by uploading it here. In the meantime, we’ll confirm with our DevOps team that there’s no algorithmic influence from taste profiles or radio history on Shuffle.

[BogFog]

Thanks Connor! How do I upload the .zip file? I can open the Roon log updater link you provided but it will not let me upload e.g. drag and drop. I cannot see how to upload.

Please advise.

Thanks.

[connor]

Hi @BogFog,

Sorry for the confusion! Try this link instead, it’s a media uploader with a different file limit..

[BogFog]

Thanks. I think that it worked…

[BogFog]

Hi Connor, any update?

Thanks.

[BogFog]

Hi Connor, any update or insights?

Thanks.