Should we be putting our foot down with Tidal or Roon's implementation of it?


(Mark) #21

Was just thinking that this could currently be done outside of Roon,

By exporting the Tidal library to a spreadsheet on a schedule, you could script a comparison to check for changes (inc. deletions).

It would be clunky as hell, but it could be done.


(Music and Shawarma Lover) #22

You mean export the Tidal portion of the Roon library? Or is there a way to separately export the whole enchilada of the Tidal library?

I don’t think the former works because Roon doesn’t take out the deleted albums…they just look like they are still there until you try to play one…and the latter sounds like it would use up a fair portion of the AWS cloud!


(Mark) #23

Yep

Oh, Roon is taking them out for sure! It’s a distinct difference from when tracks become unavailable due to licensing issues in some territories.


(Music and Shawarma Lover) #24

Wow I didn’t realize that! So on the track level we just get an error message of “unavailable” but if whole albums are removed, Roon deletes the reference from the library?

I’m not sure if that is better or worse than what I thought. Better in that there are not library entries for no content, but then also no record of a lost album!


(Mark) #25

It’s pretty brutal. We’d need confirmation from Roon, but I think ‘Unavailables’ are when the album metadata still exists in Tidal but for whatever reason is region locked. If Roon fully deletes an album it’s gone with no warning other than your memory!


(Martin Webster) #26

So we need a feature request that tells us that an album we have no intention of playing can’t be played because it is no longer available?


(Music and Shawarma Lover) #27

So you would be OK with having someone come into your study and depart with a bunch of CDs and albums as long as you never notice they are missing?

In addition to the obvious loss of content that one might one day directly want to listen to, this is contrary to the Roon ethic of making connections within your library to “find” things you had forgotten about and dig out things you have that you’re only vaguely aware of, but would like if it came to the conscious mind.

So yeah, I think we do.


(Mark) #28

Que?


(Martin Webster) #29

Since we accept that the catalogue of any streaming service will change over time the absence of an album is only an issue when you want to play it … so why be informed that an album is no longer available when you’ll find out when and if you attempt to play it?

Damn, Nightflight to Venus is no longer available on TIDAL … what am I going to do? Seems a pointless exercise to me. If a recording is that precious, buy a copy.


(Martin Webster) #30

My collection is autobiographical. It tracks what I have listened to over time. Does Roon delete an album from my library because it can’t be played? Does it lose those connections?


(Mark) #31

OIC. No, that’s not the point as you’ll appreciate if you read the support thread that was linked further up. Having albums go AWOL with no notification when you have a multi-thousand library is annoying as hell. If you don’t think so, this isn’t the thread for you.


(Martin Webster) #32

This isn’t a support thread. It is a discussion. A counter argument is just as valid or are you suggesting that I can only post on this thread if I agree with you?

As you’ve gathered, I don’t think it’s an issue. It may be mildly annoying if I wanted to play Boney M and TIDAL had deleted the album, but hey, I’ll play something else why I go on eBay to source a CD.


(danny2) #33

The possibility of tracks disappearing is the reason that I still buy music. If I find something on Tidal that I think I’ll want to play repeatedly over time, I buy it so I’m not dependent on Tidal for acces to it.


(Music and Shawarma Lover) #34

One or the other of the following happens: (1) the object entry remains in your library but there isn’t any Tidal content to back it up, so when it is to be played, instead there is just an “unavailable” error message; or (2) the object entry is deleted by Roon with no notice to the user.

Either is, in the end, not a good experience.

Martin, you’ve had many a reasonable and insightful post, so I know you’re a reasonable person and not one of those knee-jerk reaction guys who attacks anyone who is critical of anything Roon related. So I know you’ll look at this issue from the point of view of others who don’t just think of an album then go to play it. The idea of here today, gone tomorrow, with no notice, should be a concern for anyone who has spent substantial time organizing a collection for their chosen mode of playback.

I think your point is that a streaming service offers such tremendous value over purchasing every CD that when one disappears, if it was important enough, you should buy it, then live with the imperfection of the fact that they can disappear.

That is a fine point. But I think we need that tool that tells us when it disappears. I’m not criticizing streaming services for losing licenses and pulling content - but I am saying that someone, Roon or Tidal, ought to consider stepping up and creating a way to track this for individual collections.

Part of Roon’s value prop is that it makes Tidal seem like part of your collection. That logic has been used by Roon to reject notions of partial integration with Spotify among other services. But really that is only true if I am OK with someone coming in and deleting part of my collection. I realize I am not, and starting to realize the consequence of that. Roon can’t control what Tidal acquires and loses (nor can Tidal I guess)…it would be unreasonable to expect that…but I don’t think it is unreasonable for a library management tool to tell me when my library just suffered a loss!

From that perspective the onus falls on Roon, given their claims…but from the perspective of Tidal catering to those who want higher audio quality, if one can equate that with music archivists like myself, then it’s also something Tidal should consider.


(Mark) #35

No, I’m suggesting that you misrepresented what was being asked for, for starters.


(Martin Webster) #36

Yes, I think you understand. The way I think of “My Collection” now differs to you and also how I saw things a year or so ago. I don’t think of a collection as owning something. Maybe it has something to do with age; I want to listen to more music not the same music. When something is exceptional I may buy a copy but not necessarily straight away … just when I decide I want to hear something again.

The other day I wanted to listen to This Is Fats Domino! but it wasn’t available on TIDAL, so I bought the vinyl on Discogs. Is this any different?

But I agree to your opening comments. This could be handled better. Perhaps that needs more discussion and thrashing out?


(Martin Webster) #37

Aw, I think I understood. :wink:


(Mark) #38

Misrepresented, not misunderstood.

Reading comprehension?


(Daniel Beyer) #39

This topic has actually been discussed several times over the past year. The latest in-depth thread was in October, I think. In that thread, Brian posted a pretty detailed post which I’m going to link here.:smiley:


(Mark) #40

I already linked it further up the thread.