Sonore systemOptique

Audio Gear Talk Sonore
51

Thank you Anders for posting that.

I have no engineering knowledge at all and your FedEx analogy explained more to me about ethernet data packaging than anything I’ve read for a long time. These long “white papers” by John S may be of interest to engineers, but for non-technical consumers - and potential customers - like me they might as well be written in Greek. The only white paper that interests me comes on rolls.

I bought a Room server recently because I’ve been using Qobuz for about 6 years and Roon became relevant when it started to host Qobuz. Before that I had an Auralic Aries Femto in my audio system and an Aries Mini in my office. I was streaming to a Devialet Expert and when the updated their streaming card to “Core Infinity”, which does its own reclocking, there were audible clicks. I changed the Aries to the Aries Mini, which does not reclock, and the clicking went away.

So when I bought a Roon server I bought a device from Innuos for various reasons, including that they do not include reclocking because they assume it will be done by the receiving device and it could cause problems, which is what I had with the Femto Aries.

So I asked some pertinent questions about the marketing I received from Small Green Computer, which Mr Rodriguez described as “enthusiastic”.

I asked what a Sonore converter has over the TPLink converters I use, not least because the TPLink cost £36 and the Sonore costs £270 in the UK (that’s about $330, much more than the $249 in the USA). The response was that they are not making TPLink clones. What I wanted to know was what the Sonore converter has over the dramatically cheaper TPLink one in terms of performance. The irony is that Sonore are selling their units with a “systemOptique Certified SFP module”, which the picture shows is a TP-LINK TL-SM311LM MiniGBIC Module. The good news is that are selling it for $20 whereas it is $34 on Amazon, although the YuanLey branded version (which I use) is $15.

The UK marketing of the Sonore system is here:


It says:
“Unless you have a router or network switch that supports optical Ethernet you need a media converter like the opticalModule. This converts wired Ethernet to optical Ethernet.”
In fact I do, I have a Cisco 3560 that has 8 x RJ45 and 2 x SFP sockets. It cost me about $70. The UK Sonore vendor therefore does not say you need a Sonore switch at the sending end, which in that regard implies that the Sonore brings anything to the party.

So the unanswered questions are, given most DACs including my Devialet reclock anyway,
(a) what does the Sonore converter bring to the party beyond devices from TPLink, Cisco or anyone else at a fraction of the cost.
(b) what is the basis for saying the final ethernet link is a problem, whether the cable comes from Amazon, Blue Jeans or anyone else, especially when in my case with the Innuos Zen Mk3 it is coming from an ethernet output with its own designated internal low noise linear power supply, and in my case the cable is only 75cm long.

53

Yes, I was referring to John Swenson. The Rendu series is a three way collaboration between John, myself, and Andrew G. from Small Green Computer.

I have no issue with you remediating things as you describe. I also agree with you and feel it is good to feed a clean signal to something rather than a dirty one. This is the basis of the entire Rendu series.

54

Sure, I would not argue in favor of dirt.

But we need to be practical. Based on the descriptions, it seems likely that the Rendu model would not help the Chord M-Scaler + Hugo TT2, which have at least two (maybe three?) layers of galvanic isolation, and the whole architecture seems impervious to clock degradation from the outside. I have a SMSL SU-8, it could help there, but I wouldn’t put an $1800 isolator in front of a $200 DAC.

So I want to understand.

55

You wanted to know why we used femto oscillator in our designs. John’s research is one of the many reasons, feedback from the DIY community is another, and simple put because we can. These are ground up designs so we can use any part we want and feed them clean power at the same time.

John has shown with measurements that certain network setups can pass power supply noise via cable ethernet. The obvious fix for power supply leakage is optical isolation although there are other tweaks to improve things. We chose to make a fiber media converter and we recommend you use a good power supply. There are white papers on what John describes above in the posts with regards to the oscillators. John is also actively researching this and he may not want to disclose everything because he has other plans for this technology. Personally I think he said a lot. Ultimately the goal is to understand the cause and effect and move past the old normal and give people a chance to decide for themselves now if it matters. The Rendu product line is diverse and we have something for everyone to enjoy…even skeptics.

56

I spoke to John the other day and he is pretty much done talking about. He simple does not like dealing with all forums nonsense.

57

I’m serious.

58

You asked a question and I posted the most succinct answer possible in the form of two direct quotes from the designer on the subject matter. You don’t have to agree with it or understand what he is saying and that is your prerogative. I’m with John on this and that is my prerogative, but understand I don’t have to defend anything. I participate in this forum because I’m happy to share information about our products. I don’t expect everyone to agree with everything I say. You have a microRendu and it does not a femto oscillator, but surely you heard feedback from customers when we offered the hardware update which added a femto oscillator to the microRendu.

1 Like
59

I can easily show that source noise can get into a DAC regardless of how asynchronous the device is. This is the primary reason to advise people to use the best power supply they can afford. Yet I still get people saying bits are bits. For the record I have not sent any misleading marketing. In fact, our website is pretty agnostic on sound quality.

60

People can also read for themselves honest customer feedback on various forums.

61

I’m sent an email from Small Green Computer about a new product and am trying to find out why (as claimed) it might be more effective than the fibre optic bridge I and others use, with much cheaper and universally available products.

If a manufacturer comes onto a user forum, and I am a Roon user, promoting a new product effectively as a game changer, and I have quoted their marketing verbatim [ We tried to minimize his presence with expensive high-end Ethernet cables, Ethernet filters and more. However, that Uncle never seems to truly disappear.UNTIL NOW!], they should be prepared to explain their claims, and in terms that any reasonable potential customer might understand.

So far no straight answers, other than that the marketing might not be entirely honest.

If this is just a more convenient way of implementing fibre optic cabling, then fine, which is welcome, and I have now said that three times.

The TPLink solution is widespread and has been discussed here long before I joined. In such a thread, 2 years ago, Dev23 said, with remarkable foresight,
“It does of course open a market for audiophile fiber media converters”.

Well, here we are!

Sean2016 then said:
“I would replace the most upstream ethernet cable with as much fibre cable as possible and keep the DAC/streamer side ethernet cable to 6-inches if you can.”
which is what I have done. I cannot say I took his advice, it just seemed obvious.

So as predicted on this forum two years ago, we now have an audiophile media convertor and I’m waiting for an explanation I understand that might encourage me to spend 8 times more than I and zillions of others paid for the non-audiophile product.

In the referenced thread, a manufacturer of streamers with a fibre input (he said he sold 30 and since then is banned from Roon) said the most important aspect was ultra-low noise power to the media converter. I went that way, so have a £30 converter with a 9v SOTM battery supply that in the UK costs £450. I was lucky to get one for £200 and it can power two TPLink devices.

The UK retailer for Sonore offers a range of power supplies, including the well regarded iFi unit for £50, but not the SOTM unit.

So a further question is whether money is better spent on the converter or the power supply, and why. I chose the latter route. I doubt I get an answer to this either.

p.s. The long posts are due to food poisoning and having time on my hands.

p.s.s. Plus the fact I and about 1.5 billion other people are watching the cricket and it keeps on stopping for rain. My posts are mostly synchronous with the rain.

62

You keep talking about “reclocking”. Let’s be clear we are not reclocking anything. These devices have oscillators in them because they are required for proper operation. All the gear you own has oscillators in them for one reason or another, but don’t intermingle them. A DAC might reclock after the USB receiver or Ethernet receiver to reduce their inherent jitter even though both processes might be asynchronous. The audio oscillators in your DAC are different than the data oscillators in network gear and computers and perform different tasks all together. The femto Aries appears to have femto oscillators on the audio outputs. This has nothing to do with this conversation.

The reason for systemOptique is simply to pair compatible network gear with our hardware. With so much network diversity on the market we needed to assure compatibility for our customers. Our optical products each come with an SFP module. The optical modules you are referring to are extra units for those who need them. There is no irony in any of this.

63

With regard to jitter (as opposed to electrical noise), the first of two USB DACs I owned was the PS Audio PWD Mk2. This and its successor DSD DAC have been very successful and several reviewers use them as reference DACs. One reason for buying it was the “digital lens”, described thus:

The MKII features our exclusive Digital Lens technology built right inside. The Digital Lens takes any digital audio signal and regenerates a new and jitter free version to listen to. The Digital Lens, called NativeX, is selectable from the front panel or the remote. Engaging NativeX will reduce incoming jitter levels jitter on any input of the PWD to below 1 pico second, regardless of how jittered the incoming signals are.

That unit came out in 2012, so the sophistication of DACs and units like the M-Scaler would seem to obviate the need for reclocking before reaching the DAC.

So far as electrical noise is concerned, that effects the amplitude of the signal and presumably results in data errors rather than timing issues, and the risk of error from noise increases as the data stream becomes greater for higher resolution files. Presumably there is a threshold at which electrical noise becomes inaudible, including that picked up by a very short ethernet cable.

p.s. the cricket’s back on.

64

I think you are being a bit disingenuous. On the one hand you have no issue accepting whatever technology is in your own gear, but you are having such a huge problem with this fiber media converter. This technology has been explained, but not to your satisfaction. Honestly, I doubt it can be explain to your satisfaction.

65

Yes, electrical noises a different issue. It is a reasonable concern, easily explained, it is a question of a) whether the combination of computer and DAC has that problem, and b) whether a specific device remediates the problem.

My concern is with the reclocking.

66

Most computers and network gear have this issue because they have crappy power supplies. Remember we are a computer replacement in the audio room so we have to recommend power supplies accordingly. We don’t make or recommend reclockers.

67

Did you try replying to that email, and asking the person that sent the email?

68

No, I googled systemOptique and this thread was about the third item.

Just looked at the email and it says at the bottom “systemOptique Is The Future of Audio”. That’s quite a claim.

1 Like
69

The Chord M-Scaler + Hugo TT2 combo is about $10,800 on a quick online search:) An opticalRendu feeding your SMSL SU-8 might just be a really incredible system. Then again if you are satisfied with your microRendu or whatever else you are using…enjoy it. I have no issue if someone wants to use a TP-Link to isolate their gear. Personally, I’m using my Signature Rendu SE optical into a Sonore toneDAC. I’m also using a opticalModule on the other end. The combinations are endless.

70

So far there are two DACs that support optical networking. There is one company making an audiophile switch ($1,000) with dual optical SPFs. There is another company making an audiophile switch ($630) with a single optical SFP. We have two products with optical SFPs. Next up is our Sonore opticalModule INT which will be installed internally in Small Green Computer servers. The Sonore opticalModule INT will also be available to customers who want to install the unit in their DYI server builds. You can safely bet there will be more optical products on the way, as such I think the future looks pretty good for systemOptique.

71

In fact, the SMSL SU-8 is fed by a SonicOrbiter, and feeds a THX AAA 789 ($350). They do quite well, if not quite at the Chord level.