Spotify integration with Roon, Please vote

Sonos only gets aac256 like Chromecast. Unless using connect has a different result than the Sonos Spotify app? Seems doubtful, and either way, that’s on Spotify. Granted, Apple remains the poster child for how not to build a Sonos app. At least it gets music to the hifi.

I’m just using my roon player windows machine for roon, tidal native, deezer, itunes/Apple music and Spotify, so it doesn’t all matter to me now, but I learned hard lessons after purchasing Sonos and CCA.

The data market is probably the biggest market in town. It’s of course the core business of big data, Google, Amazon, Facebook, and only slightly less for MS and Apple. Plus companies most have never heard of. Ultimately with all the collected data, they can build pretty good profiles for a particular consumer, or segment of consumers, and if it’s personally identifying (and just because the data provided isn’t always identified, it can be easy to link with other data to identify it) can build a psychological profile and behavioral profile from it. That information is valuable to marketers, employers, healthcare, finance/credit, insurance, etc. The key is, the more concise and complete the profile, even if narrow focus, the more valuable, especially for bulk sale. Spotify has very comprehensive profile data for a huge number of people. They know what you listen to, they know when you listen to it, and they know where you are when you listen to it. They know your general routines, place to place and generally the mood you’re in at any given time. They know generally the schedule you keep and they know when you go somewhere different. Your ip is the giveaway. They know how you feel or if your mood is affected by a certain place. They know who else you know. Not a comprehensive and Facebook does, but they know who’s sharing playlists, and they know where they are (if they’re listening to Spotify.). The networking data with friends makes spotifys and apples data more saleable than, say, tidal, that doesn’t have that social aspect.

Plenty of marketers, risk managers, etc will pay good money for that level of awareness of getting inside your head and knowing what you feel about where you are and what kind of schedule you keep.

And that’s just a music service. Google, Amazon, and Facebook are that level of creepy, squared. They have more ways to extrapolate even more valuable data.

It’s not a specific spotify probablem. No doubt every music service, probably even roon is making some money off user data. But spotifys is by far the most valuable. Maybe except Google now that it’s attaching to YouTube.

yes vote for me

Hi again. Using Spotify Connect to Sonos gets exactly the same result as using Spotify via the Sonos app… as logic would suggest… 320 kbps Ogg/Vorbis.

Chromecast is different and uses 256 kbps AAC for Spotify Connect.

Weird if true, their support told me otherwise. And more confusing if true since Spotify sounds worse on sonos and CCA than it and apple do on usb, and vs Apple on Sonos… And it should sound the same as one of them. On pc usb both Apple and Spotify sounds about the same to me.

Not at all weird - if you read the above from Sonos site, it’s exactly what you’d expect for both ways of playing Spotify on Sonos, i.e. 320 kbps Ogg/Vorbis for both ways. Everything seems in order and logical.

I haven’t seen anything anywhere online that suggests what you’re saying either.

I can’t comment on this. One man’s worse is another man’s better and one man’s better is another’s worse.

I just try to stick (as close as possible) to the facts that are out there…

I mean weird in the context that they told me it was aac256 in response to my inquiry on interior sq to directly though the Spotify app. As for inferior, in this case it’s not really audiophile opinion of “presence and air and authority” etc. It’s a matter of tizzy, metallic artifacting common to 128k mp3s. I.e. not subjective audio commentary, but hard defects pointing to quality of encoding. Sonos and CCA share that. Spotify main apps don’t. I don’t have a bluesound device so i can’t comment or compare there. Fwiw, Sonos, cca, pc, and Android usb were all fed into the same reclocker, so it’s not a jitter issue.

Noted but I can’t find anything similar to what you’re suggesting anywhere on the Spotify or Sonos forum either… Not even one example…

Chromecast on the other hand, being 256 kbps AAC for Spotify Connect, is discussed everywhere…

Well, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time generic call/email center tech support handed out bogus information. Though that makes me confused again as to why Spotify just sounds so bad over Sonos? I mean it’s not amazing on PC next to lossless, but at least it’s not harsh and metallic like on Sonos and Chromecast. I’m sensitive to compression artifacts, and both Apple and Spotify take turns wearing the dunce hat for me in their SQ, but neither are like the ear torture of Spotify over Sonos/Chromecast. It’s like I’m listening to my Fraunhofer rips circa 1999-2002 all over again. And neither Vorbis nor AAC should sound like that (and neither do on PC.)

I’d be happy with enabling it as a connect endpoint and maybe making it easier to upload playlists.

Not Roon’s market.

It could simply be the DAC in the Sonos gear not playing nice with whatever format Spotify is sending it. The ability to render detail from a compressed format varies widely from device to device. I’ve never heard anyone rave about a Sonos DAC. Want to get weirder? Spotify sounds pretty good through my Mu-So (good DAC + internal DSP). Apple Music (via AirPlay) sounds ho-hum. Apple Music → Airport Express -optical-> Mu-So sounds much better and about the same as Spotify. No idea what/why the Mu-So is doing with Airplay to make it sound worse than putting an AP Express in front of it. *Note I’ve not tried AP2 yet.

I wouldn’t subscribe or use Spotify unless the sound quality improved dramatically. Sure, the more integrations the better…except Roon doesn’t have big resources. Prefer they perfect what they have before doing more.

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It’s clear that Spotify doesn’t need Roon and isn’t willing to deviate from its standard interface to other devices. I’m sure they view Roon as a niche market they don’t need.

I have a premium account with Spotify and listened to it sporadically via a Bluesound Node 2 to my Devialet Expert 200. When I got my Devialet Expert 220 Pro, which permitted me to stream directly with Spotify Connect, I couldn’t believe how good Spotify could sound. Not up to par with Tidal via Roon but nonetheless impressive.

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Having worked at Spotify recently I can add that, without having heard the specific topic discussed, I think for several reasons touched on above it is highly unlikely that integration would get onto any roadmap.

@Greg_Hill Is CD quality (or better) on their roadmap?

There’s some truth to that. I’m not using the Sonos’ DAC, it’s just a Spotify Connect I got primarily as a transport for Apple Music since it’s the only Apple Music transport other than PC or AirPlay hardware (of which I have none since I’m not in Apple’s hardware ecosystem at all.) Unfortunately I discovered Apple’s Sonos app is horrible and has as much Apple Music library interaction as Roon does…which is to say, about none - it’s a playback device only. I ended up getting a Surface Go & Surface dock instead, to run full iTunes, and full Tidal/Spotify app, and of course now Roon.

But it’s all being fed into the same actual DAC, so we’re talking only the transport/decoder interfering. However, it’s also, true, even with Tidal, I notice an audible improvement with an XMos USB bridge from the Surface compared to the Sonos’ output into the very same DAC (coax SPDIF from the Sonos Connect, AES/EBU from the XMos bridge, though is one other difference.)

Still, Apple, Tidal and Deezer HiFi sound good out of the Sonos and Chromecast. They sound noticeably better out of the PC USB. But Spotify alone sounds like ancient metallic MP3s out of both Chromecast and Sonos. It sounds good out of PC. There’s something going on there beyond just hardware.

Right now my biggest annoyance with Spotify, other than my least favorite radio out of all the streaming services, is the performance of their PC app. On a meager Surface Go, it CRAWLS. There’s no reason for it too. I thought iTunes was a sloth on there until I tried Spotify’s app. Deezer’s app is smooth, Tidal’s app is mostly smooth, Roon actually is buttery smooth even as the core! (despite using more memory than any of the others), Spotify’s is a stuttery, laggy annoyance. And the ironic, weird thing, is that the Spotify client was pre-installed on the machine by MS, so it’s the only streaming app that’s officially recommended, and it’s the worst performer for the hardware.

All that said it’s kind of a moot point. Spotify is probably the least likely of all streaming services to ever touch Roon unless maybe Amazon starts causing them trouble. Apple’s off in their corner with their own market, and Google does Google, but they have questionable market share for their paid service, and it’s even more unappealing with the whole “you have to buy YT Music, but that includes GPM, but they’re two separate libraries, and YT Music isn’t really ready for prime time and seems to be getting worse, but if you want YT Red, renamed YT Premium you have to pay for music service and then add more money on top…” disaster. They might be willing to do Roon since they do other third party players that support Tidal & Qobuz (Bubble UPnP, USB Audio Player Pro), but it’s not Roon’s depth of integration. And Google seems willing to do anything regardless of it it makes any sense or not…it’s only a billion or two, why not? :smile:

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Per just a few weeks ago, will be transitioning…

It wasn’t when I was there (last year). I had heard about a hi-res trial before I started there, so of course I asked around but no one in the teams i worked with had any but a vague recollection of it.
I do remember one designer, i think it was, who recalled that during research they discovered this crazy software that costs like over a $100 a year for doing what exactly they weren’t sure. I said you mean Roon? Ah yeah, that’s it, he said. That was just a designer on one team and you can’t conclude too much from it but, as someone mentioned above they don’t really think of themselves as a music company and most of the staff, mostly young of course, don’t know much about the music industry. In other words, generally there’s no more awareness of music, or networking ecosystems, there than you’d find in any group of 20-somethings. Of course they’re engineers with a good-to-great deal of knowledge but it’s not a focus or requirement, at least in my experience.

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Yeah, I knew that was the plan overall, but right now it’s a complete joke, and YT Music itself is…have you tried it? It’s hard to convey the awkwardness in words. I actually pay for it, started with GPM, I never use it. Bad sound quality, OK but patchy library. “top 40” radio type lists. I loved the YT Music app when it was about a music-oriented-with-video- YT portal. It was nice for finding concert clips, full concerts, artist interviews, panels, TV appearances, etc, but music industry focused. When they started converting it into the new music service, everything that made it great halted. Videos started getting marked as “not available” from my lists. I couldn’t find any concert videos or anything anymore, it became a MTV type official music video service with some random video-less albums thrown in. Then I discovered, recently, that’s because in trying to turn YT music into the new GPM they deleted most of what made it YT, and most of that stuff is still findable in the native YT interface. So now YT Music feels like a very haphazard music player, potentially with a great catalog, but a dismal sound quality or means of organization or find-ability. It’s really really weird, like they told the “random video clips” team at YT to make a music player. Despite the YT branding it feels like the typical Google “We didn’t think this through, and we’ll discontinue this for another new version in 3 years” product.

IMO it’s telling that the only way to get ad-free Youtube, something people actually want, is to buy their music service that nobody wants for $10 and add another $4 for Youtube. They’re selling music by forcing people who want video to buy it. For now I still have the old $10 pricing for both. I may still end up keeping it just for the ad-free Youtube since browsing for concert clips and such with ads doesn’t sound fun, and I hear the ads have been cranked to 11 as of the newest YT update a few weeks ago. Google’s the “everything is free!” company is turning into the most expensive services company on Earth.

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If I wanted Spotify, and I don’t, I can get it through the Bluesound app easily enough. Roon an BluOS work well together for me.