As we know, Roon is capable of connecting a multitude of devices in impressive and intriguing ways. Roon can handle the mix of hardware and make sence of it. But what about the ‘inverse problem’?
As an example, It seems to me like a waste of money to buy a device with a big overlap in features. For example, the NAD M10v2 (which I am considering), does (among other things)
DSP room correction,
streams Tidal,
has the fine BlueOS and apps with good UI
multi-room speaker setup
All of the above can be achieved with a dedicated computer running Roon. Why would I pay for the redundant hardware and the (probably) significant engineering cost for developing e.g. the BlueOS, the apps, the UI, the multi-room streaming capabilities that I will never use?
So, if I were to build the system from scratch, with a Roon NUC and a pair of passive speakers, how would the least feature-redundant high-end set-up look like? Logically that system would be the best value system one could put together (in reality it might not be so …).
I know that the immediate response will be something: what is the budget, do you prefer dedicated or integrated ‘boxes’ etc. So to be a little more concrete I quickly describe my system as of today:
Roon on MacBook Pro (will soon be on a dedicated NUC).
Denon DRA-100 as endpoint (streaming via Airplay).
Duevel Planets as loudspeakers.
I find my system to have a very low ‘feature-redundancy’ and I give it a high score ;), but I suffer from using the Airplay (would like to use RAAT). A remark: a significant plus is that the Denon DRA100 has Spotify connect, so my teenage daughters can easily connect from the Spotify app. A second remark: I use the Duevel Planets, but I will possibly upgrade to Duevel Venus in due time (I love those speakers)!
Writing up this post I realize that my question is rather simple: What would be the best Roon ready upgrade from Denon DRA-100 (not spending money on unnecessary features).
Thanks!
Bill_Janssen
(Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)
2
An interesting question. I was using
A raspberry Pi / Ropieee box as Roon endpoint, feeding
A Topping D70 for DAC and preamp, feeding
A DIY Hypex NC252MP power amp
Very little feature redundancy, less than $1000 outlay.
But I felt there weren’t enough VU meters. So I bought a NAD box.
Those raspberry Pi make great endpoints. With a Digi+ hat you could run coax or toslink into your receiver. I used one in my main system for years (and still use it with my desktop setup).
Thanks for the answers! The Raspberry Pi way seems very neat and is one that I am considering for ‘distributing and filling up the home’ and for the joy of it.
But for the dedicated audio corner I might just have found a decent solution: The Hegel H190 seems to
Hegel H190 would indeed be worth considering - full disclosure, I had one for about 3 years and now have a H390, which I use with an external streaming DAC (Lumin).
As you point out the DAC does some resampling which may or may not be an issue. Sound quality is excellent, and has Spotify, Airplay, Roon Ready on board. IMHO best results are to be had with a higher quality external DAC, but the amplification is top notch - you would certainly appreciate the extra power if you went with the speaker upgrade.
On the down side, it seems like it is due to be replaced, as retailers are discounting/out of stock (although the price reductions make it a bargain). Another option would be a used H390 which is really a big step up in quality - no reliability issues.
The H190 is at my current price point so I guess the H390 is a bit of a stretch (but I am not saying no, no no . But it raises a (beginners) question regarding the external DAC+H390. Is H390 the Roon endpoint and can you change the volume in the Roon remote?
Does this mean that we will soon see an upgrade? Maybe they put in a better DAC? Then it wouldn’t be too much of a down side…
I’d imagine an upgrade will happen to the H190, and almost certainly to the DAC where it is likely to be most noticeable. The amplification is already very good for the money, so maybe some minor tweaks (like the H590 → H600 recently).
H390 is Roon Ready - when this software update happened I compared it to the Lumin T2 and (no surprise given it cost not much less than the H390) the Lumin sounded much better. That said, I could certainly live with the H390 as a single box solution - the power and bass grip are worth the extra money, especially if you have somewhat difficult to drive speakers.
Bottom line, in my opinion H390 is the sweet spot in the Hegel range, and fantastic value for money for an integrated amp, but you need a good external DAC to really get the best out of it - of course speakers and listening space are important contributing factors as always.
Also, don’t know if Hegel volume is controllable from Roon directly, as I don’t do that.
I should have also mentioned that the DAC in the H390 is different, and better, than that in the H190 - no resampling. I have a disc player connected to it for the occasional CD/SACD spin and it sounds perfectly fine.
And sorry to bother you, but I have a follow up question… I am curious about how you actually hook up the DAC+H390. Is the internal DAC of the H390 bypassed (source → H390 → Lumin DAC → H390) or do you first go through the Lumin DAC and then into the H390 (source → Lumin DAC → H390)?
Sorry for the noobie question, but I just want to get it right.
If the internal DAC of the H390 is bypassed, then the volume control in the Roon remote should work, shouldn’t it?
(Yeah, I know. This talk about the volumen control. But it is quite important for me to collect evertyhing UI in one place and I have picked the Roon as my UI and this includes the volume control, even though you can have much nicer physical ones).
The Lumin T2 is a streamer/DAC combined (although it does not have any additional digital inputs for e.g. a CD transport) - so it is a Roon Ready endpoint (also has Tidal/Spotify Connect, Airplay, etc.) and I use the analog outputs from the T2 into the XLR inputs on the H390, so bypassing the H390’s DAC. Depending how you have both set up, the volume control in Roon works - I have it set to 100 in Roon and control volume using the H390’s remote.
Using the H390 as a single box solution, you use the built in streaming function (Roon Ready, Airplay, Spotify connect, DLNA) in the H390 which then routes through the H390’s DAC and amplification. I’ll check how the Roon volume control for that works and report back.
Why not just use a WiiM Pro which is Roon-Ready, and via coax out from the WiiM into your Denon?
You were asking about options that avoid duplication of functionality, but then come up with the Hegel, which is a DAC and amplifier… Are you now thinking about replacing the Denon?
In case you would like to use an external DAC instead of the DAC in the Denon, I just would get a RPi with USB out into any of so many available DAC options. From the DAC analogue into the Denon. Other family members could still Airplay or Spotify Connect directly into the Denon.
Both options are low-cost and will work well with what you already own.
Thanks again!
I am more than happy for now. Thread opened up my eye to Hegel as a possible replacement for my Denon DRA-100 and quickly identified a good model (H190), identified problems and then possible solutions (H390) Also sent an email to Hegel, so let us see if they drop by with any comments
And, yeah @Andreas_Philipp1, the Wiim Pro certanly seems to be a ‘here and now’ solution for the DRA-100. However, for this solution and the RPi solution, wouldn’t you loose the volume control in Roon remote?
To conclude the thread so far, I refine my ‘requirements’
Integrated amplifier
Should be/have
DAC with lossless capability (no resampling)
Preamp
Power amplifier
Minimal appearance physical UI (selector and volume control is enough)
Spotify connect (for family and friends)
Roon ready (including volume control from Roon remote)
Should not have
Room correction advanced DSP
Multiroom functionality
Its own ‘data-stack’
OS
app with UI
Advanced shiny display
The ‘should not have’:s drive cost for the product and I think those features are better developed elsewhere, e.g. in Roon.
I use a USB DAC connected to a RPi running Roon Bridge, and from the DAC analogue out into my integrated amplifier. Just for the fun of it, I just reconfigured volume control as ‘device volume’… and it works…
I normally have volume fixed on Roon, and control on my amp…
RAAT server (Roon Bridge) and DAC can communicate over USB. In the case of a Roon-Ready network transport as the WiiM Pro, this should work, too, even if the WiiM only has coax and Toslink digital outputs.
Thanks for the reponse and some more details! I am not trying to be a pain in the ass, but I do have some more questions… I am trying to figure out how things operate in the Roon controlled world
Now, I don’t know what DAC you have, but
If the RPi is the Roon endpoint and
if the USB DAC is connected to the amplifier and
if the volume control set to ‘device volume’ works fine
then, wouldn’t the above assumptions imply that
the Roon sends ‘volume control signals’ to the DAC and
the DAC change the signal volume either in the
digital domain via DSP or
analgue domain in a preamp stage.
In both cases I guess that the DAC analogue ouput signal is probably not optimal: volume changes via DSP or a non-dedicated preamp stage will lightly introduce a reduced signal to noise (SNR).
But, I might be wrong — in that case just correct me
Again, I don’t want to come out of this as a being picky. Actually I just want to learn so that I can optimize my future system withour spending money, time and effoert on mysterious and wicked stuff. And hopefully we can learn about this stuff together
Well, at some point the signal must be attenuated to have volume control… how do you assume is the signal attenuated within a Hegel?
Of course, if Roon communicates with the USB DAC sending volume control signals, it depends on the DAC’s implementation on how it does this… in my case, I am not sure if in the digital or analogue domain, but I believe it is done in the analogue domain. Anyway, as opposed to you, I don’t do volume control with Roon and prefer to control volume on my amplifier, which of course also must do some analogue domain signal attenuation. In my amp’s case, this is done via a TKD attenuator.
If you use a network transport like the WiiM Pro to send a digital signal to your Denon or to a Hegel, I’d think the amp will use its native signal attenuation, however it is implemented. If it does so by attenuating the internal DAC’s analogue output signal, I don’t know, but I would assume it is so.
BTW, I am really not so much interested in these device implementation details. I am quite convinced that I mostly cannot hear any differences. I nowadays am only interested in the music and my musical enjoyment, and I won’t lose a moment of thought about options for my system’s ‘optimization’… I am happy with what I have and with how it sounds…
That is great! And to be honest — this is often what I use to say as well… It is just that I had a listen experience some time ago that blew my mind! Same speakers as mine (Duevel Planets) sounded fantastic on a fancy system (I unfortuneatly don’t know the system, but is was quite a lot of expensive boxes…).
So I got motivated to up my system — and when I get motivated, I want to know. My hope is that knowledge will avoid expensive, time consuming and tiring decisions! And to have this process in an open forum might be a good thing… hopefully
I might bring up some questions regarding amplification and attenuation (the amplifier is amplifying, right?). But I think I will read up the matter and maybe post elsewhere instead of contaminating this thread more than necessary…
There are three factors which have a clearly noticeable effect on sound reproduction quality:
Sound recording, editing and mastering
Room
Speakers
So, if you hear the same speakers you own in another setup with a recording you know well, and seem to notice a greatly improved sound, chances are good it comes down to your room setup, rather than fancy boxes and snake oil…
. But it raises a (beginners) question regarding the external DAC+H390. Is H390 the Roon endpoint and can you change the volume in the Roon remote?
I am curious about how you actually hook up the DAC+H390. Is the internal DAC of the H390 bypassed (source → H390 → Lumin DAC → H390) or do you first go through the Lumin DAC and then into the H390 (source → Lumin DAC → H390)?
Also sent an email to Hegel, so let us see if they drop by with any comments 
