Version 1.8 improved sound quality

I did ask the question in good faith. I would like to hear what you think Roon is doing wrong that they could “fix”. What could Roon be doing to bit perfect data to make it sound worse than what Sqeezebox is doing?

Are you using a USB connection? If you are, Roon does not create any of the electrical signals. That is done at layers deeper in the system than Roon touches. In other words, Roon does not control the USB eye pattern.

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Why the obession that bit perfect is all that is needed?
I have used Audirvana and Roon from the same PC on the same network and to the same DAC. Nothing is different (as far as I can tell) other than the software.
But they sound very different. To me Audirvana sounds better but that is just my opinion.

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I only emphasize bit perfect to make it clear that neither software is altering the bits in a way that would alter the sound. That isolates the difference to something other than the actual digital data.

I use HQPlayer myself which clearly alter the bits. But I have tested extensively using bit perfect data.

Subjectivist Audiophiles’ Iron Law of Music Servers

  1. Ease of use
  2. Sound quality
  3. Low cost

Pick two. You cannot have all three. Optimizing two compromises the third parameter.

AJ

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I wish I knew what they could fix. It sure would help it get resolved if it was easily diagnosed.

I think it has something to do with network traffic. That’s why I mentioned a few posts back the recommendation to pull out the Ethernet cable when listening. I should repeat that and compare the difference between Squeezelite and Roon when I kill the network. For my experiments I actually used a smart plug to power off one of the FMCs prior my Zenith. That made it easy to cycle the network on and off using my iPhone. I tried that previously only with Roon so I will have to see if the result is then same with Squeezelite.

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Very astute. I actually believe in the early days Roon achieved both #1 and #2. But then something changed their further ease of use enhancements began to degrade sound quality. This is only an opinion but it is based on the fact that I compared Roon to Squeezelite a year ago and I didn’t find the difference to be worth giving up Roon. My system improved a lot since then so I can’t rule that out as an explanation.

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I have a Stack Audio Link II but was able to try what the article was suggesting, enabling Sqeezelite setting. I can easily switch between the regular roon RAAT endpoint and the Sqeezelite one. Surprisingly there is a difference but I prefer the roon RAAT endpoint. The soundstage is more precise and cleaner sounding. My setup is a Chord mscaler/Dave combo to Focal Utopia headphones.

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My experience as well. To quote the KB article on Sound Quality:

Roon works differently from other software, so you may not be able to drop it into an existing setup and get the same results immediately.

When Roon is handicapped by deploying it the same way as Audirvana, Roon always loses in a sound quality comparison. But, when Roon is deployed properly, it usually wins…sometimes by a large margin!

My experience; YMMV.

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Audirvana does sound good. I’m using it for two weeks while away from home for the holidays. It might be a little brighter than Roon, IDK.

Including a universal binary for M1 Macs?

Something in the OP’s set up is colouring the sound in a way he enjoys.

I cannot see how Roon can do anything about that.

He could try using the Tools in Roon to re create this colouration if its that important, that would be more interesting too.

Notice I spelled Colour correctly also. :joy:

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This is an interesting topic. While I understand why people find it difficult to believe that software could cause difference in bitperfect signal, it can happen. I don’t have technical explanation for it but I have compared JRMC vs Roon back when I used JRMC for playback and library management and had Roon on trial period. During this two month period, the difference was obvious from the beginning to the end. JRMC consistently sounded slightly smoother and gave more bass than Roon. Then again Roon sounded maybe slightly more neutral and cleaner. Neither one sounded better than another, just different. I also still had foobar2000 installed (which I used before JRMC) and it sounded identical to Roon. JRMC was the one which had different sound signature. All players just output bitperfect signal from my PC through USB-bridge to Naim DAC and didn’t alter the sound in any way.

Nowadays I have lifetime subscription for Roon and I don’t care about or do comparisons anymore. Roon’s interface is simply superior to anything else so that’s what I use.

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You would need to layout the system you were using when the tests were done to come to any useful conclusion, but like you, I cannot be bothered with comparison as my Meridian DSP system sounds so damn good.

At the point that someone suggested that I need to train myself to hear differences so that I can pick up on them I decided that it would be too much effort so instead I’ll just enjoy what I have!

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Like I said before, any differences in playback software are so minor that they are in a magnitude that they become 100% system dependant wether they are perceived as sounding better or worse and all fall into the 1% tweaking categorie. What makes one system sound a tiny bit more open and spacious makes another system sound a tiny bit to bright and fatiguing. What makes one system sound a tiny bit more dynamic makes another system sounding a tiny bit more compressed. Now, to optimize these little differences for each and every system configuration in the entire world is simply not possible. It will allways be impossible. Best thing Roon could do is giving you more settings so there are more options. Worst thing Roon can do is give the average user (who does not even know how to handle a simple parametric eq) all the option to play with. Tweaking a system is like solving an equation with 30 variables. One of these variables is your playback software, how many of the other 29 have so solved allready? Don’t get me wrong, I am not against better sound quality but I think in general the expectations on what the playback software can do just are a tiny bit too high. Don’t stare yourself blind on this one variable in the equation. You’ll need to spare some time and energy to solve the other variables as well.

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Well, I guess You have answered your own question here. Nothing has degraded in Roon’s sound quality due to their ease of use enhancements. It’s not Roon that has changed, your system has changed and for the good or the bad, it seems that Squeezelite is forming a better match with the current state of your system. Change your system again and it might be just the other way around. How can Roon adapt to that? Or How can I adapt my system to Roon if that is my preferred player. That are the questions you have to ask yourself.

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The increasing number of reports of growing dissatisfaction with Roon amongst those with far better systems than mine were what lead me to compare Roon to Squezeltie again. I don’t think we can rule out Roon having degraded.

This isn’t just about my system as others who have systems on par with mine or better than mine are reporting the same things. I shared a link to a review of an Antipodes server and his observations exactly mirror mine and the complaints other audiophiles have about Roon. I’m not asking Roon to adapt to me. I’m asking them to listen to customers who have high end gear and try to understand what might be going on. As a software product manager, I can’t imagine ever ignoring what a segment of our customers has to say. I can’t imagine ever dismissing them out of hand.

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I’ll repeat myself, Roon can only deliver bit perfect files to your system. What else would you have them do?

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For me I heard the exact opposite. Roon endpoint with mscaler/Dave is better than Squeezelite on the same endpoint, Link II. Squeezelite had a flatter soundstage in comparison and vocals felt more spread out. Now this is just in comparison, so differences are small but noticeable.

The other nice thing is the Link II allows you disable everything else besides the roon endpoint to have most efficient setup. I could I have sworn I hear an additional improvement when I disabled Squeezelite but can’t be sure since takes a lot of steps to turn on and off. But when both are active, you can just use Transfer Zone feature and go back and forth quickly. Everything bit perfect and software volume disabled.

I think what they’re asking for is what is called euphonic distortion, which is the only thing I can see that would make Roon alternatives sound different. Roon should employ advanced psychoacoustic principles and profiling to eliminate the things I don’t want to hear in a piece, and boost the things I do want to hear!

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