Version 1.8 improved sound quality

[xxx (Banned - toxicity)]

@iamoneagain

For me I heard the exact opposite. Roon endpoint with mscaler/Dave is better than Squeezelite on the same endpoint

Damn well better be better.

[iamoneagain]

All they can do is make it more efficient. In their instructions they basically spell it out that the core is not meant to have best sound quality. It can tax your system. And with each upgrade it may become more loaded with features. However, the RAAT end point is light weight and should have best sound quality. None of changes to core should effect the sound quality.

If you want best all in one setup, a Nuc roon rock or nucleus with linear power supply would be way to go. I personally think separating the end point makes the most sense.

[iamoneagain]

Well just to make sure I’m explaining it right. I’m not using a Squeezebox. Just switching between RAAT endpoint and Sqeezelite end point on same streaming device into mscaler/Dave. Only point out my setup to show have very transparent system and should hear differences if there are any.

[Ken_Bauernfreund (Ken B)]

@Chrislayeruk

I’ll repeat myself, Roon can only deliver bit perfect files to your system. What else would you have them do?

You wouldn’t have to repeat yourself if you actually listened to others saying that there is more to it than just delivering bit perfect files. Roon themselves have acknowledged that “electrically noisy activities of computer” can degrade audio performance. Further they claim this:

“RAAT does many things, but most importantly, it separates audio output from the CPU intensive, bus-interrupting, electrically noisy activities of computer audio like managing the play queue, decoding audio streams, talking to music services online, and communicating with the various devices on your network.”

I think what the many reports suggest is that RAAT isn’t as successful as they claim at separating the audio output from “electrically noisy activities of computer audio”.

Those of you who keep repeating that bit perfection is all that matters are ignoring what Roon themselves have said, such as:

“This architecture means that the core can be much more powerful while having no impact on your audio performance. You wouldn’t put a quad-core Intel i7 CPU with a big noisy CPU fan into the same box as an analog amplifier, right? Of course not.”

Roon is absolutely correct in saying that noise causes audio performance to suffer. Do you disagree?

All my quotes pulled from this: https://help.roonlabs.com/portal/en/kb/articles/start-with-a-roon-core

[mikeb]

@Ken_Bauernfreund

“RAAT does many things, but most importantly, it separates audio output from the CPU intensive, bus-interrupting, electrically noisy activities of computer audio like managing the play queue, decoding audio streams, talking to music services online, and communicating with the various devices on your network.”

Advertising double speak. Don’t fall for it

[iamoneagain]

Have you tested this yourself? And roon goes out of their way not to promise anything with sound quality. I hear a difference listening to my setup directly plugged into the Nuc core vs the end point.

And as I’ve said, I’ve come to conclusion that the RAAT endpoint is working better than squeezelite, at least in my setup.

The differences aren’t big but usually show up as a change in soundstage.

[Ken_Bauernfreund (Ken B)]

@Bill_Janssen

@Chrislayeruk

What else would you have them do?

I think what they’re asking for is what is called euphonic distortion, which is the only thing I can see that would make Roon alternatives sound different. Roon should employ advanced psychoacoustic principles and profiling to eliminate the things I don’t want to hear in a piece, and boost the things I do want to hear!

Some of the improvements I hear when disabling Roon are found in the time domain. Guitar strings more realistically energize the air as both the attack and sustain are more natural. Percussion sounds more lifelike as well.

Also micro dynamics improve such that voices become more lifelike in their articulation.

The really amazing part is the greater separation. Voices and instruments emerge that Roon had previously munged together.

I could go on and on, but in my system at least, the improvements I hear make reproduced music take a nice step in the direction of having the qualities of what we hear in live music.

[Ken_Bauernfreund (Ken B)]

@iamoneagain

Well just to make sure I’m explaining it right. I’m not using a Squeezebox. Just switching between RAAT endpoint and Sqeezelite end point on same streaming device into mscaler/Dave. Only point out my setup to show have very transparent system and should hear differences if there are any.

So you kept Roon in the equation?

[Chrislayeruk (Chris)]

Just separate your Roon core with a network, get a decent streamer and it’s job done… You can even use fibre. All Roon can do is deliver bit perfect files. All the rest is up to the user.

[Adam_Goodfellow]

@Ken_Bauernfreund

Those of you who keep repeating that bit perfection is all that matters are ignoring what Roon themselves have said, such as:

The bit transparency is important to eliminate digital processing as a cause of difference. The only way to get to the bottom of this is to progressively eliminate possible causes.

There may also be also be factors that are common to people’s setups such that certain kinds of setup are far more revealing of DAC related issues (ie its electrical environment) than others. Also maybe certain RAAT endpoint devices are noisier than others.

Maybe it is something Roon can do something about, maybe not. At this point all there are some claims of difference - ie some subjective opinions. I think these need to be correlated with something objective in order to understand what may be going on before one can consider a targeted action.

For those who hear a difference - then I guess full end to end details will help - ie source (local flac / stream service), dac → pre/power amp etc and is the DAC being used as a digital volume control / serving as a preamp etc.

Otherwise I guess this will just go round in circles

[Ken_Bauernfreund (Ken B)]

@mikeb

@Ken_Bauernfreund

“RAAT does many things, but most importantly, it separates audio output from the CPU intensive, bus-interrupting, electrically noisy activities of computer audio like managing the play queue, decoding audio streams, talking to music services online, and communicating with the various devices on your network.”

Advertising double speak. Don’t fall for it

I’m not sure Roon believes this stuff anymore. It seemed early on they tried to win over the audiophile community and positioned their multiple tier architecture as aimed at the best sound quality. But when their Roon Partners program came along, their multiple tier architecture became more about signing up new partners.

[John_Claude]

Just to make sure I’m on the right track here. If my Roon core/library is running on a Mac mini, which is connected to a DigiOne Signature via ethernet, which is then connected to my integrated via digital audio RCA, that’s the solution you’re talking about, yeah?

[Chrislayeruk (Chris)]

That seems fine to me. Your core should have no influence on your endpoint.
My core is upstairs on a Qnap TVS 471 with a Battery in the power supply. My Cat5e network with basic switches feed my Meridian 210 etc downstairs and various zones around the house, even one using a powering adapter.
It all sounds perfect to me.

[Ken_Bauernfreund (Ken B)]

@Adam_Goodfellow

@Ken_Bauernfreund

Those of you who keep repeating that bit perfection is all that matters are ignoring what Roon themselves have said, such as:

Otherwise I guess this will just go round in circles

Yeah that’s pretty much the only possible outcome. It seems like those commenting fall into one of these buckets:

1. Have heard differences between bit perfect music platforms and are willing to listen themselves
2. Believe that all that matters is bit perfection and not really interested in hearing differences themselves
3. Couldn’t care less either way but get off on mocking those who claim to hear differences

I think if just those in the #1 bucket were to engage in a discussion we might get somewhere but it’s really difficult to make any progress when repeatedly asked by those in bucket #2 to explain what more is needed than bit perfection. And that’s made even more difficult by the grandiosity junkies flying around us like bees at a picnic. (This was an attempt at humor).

Well I said my peace and got exactly what I expected: bupkis. No worries.

I’m really glad that so many of you are so happy with Roon. It really is a great product. I haven’t completely given up as there is something else I want to try.

I wish you all the happiest of holidays. I mean this sincerely.

[John_Claude]

I have a battery pack for the clean power side on my DigiOne Signature, but I broke down and ordered the Shanti PSU. Dealing with batteries isn’t fun. I’d rather just leave it plugged in.

[Frank_Daman]

@iamoneagain

their instructions they basically spell it out that the core is not meant to have best sound quality.

The core is not supposed to have “a sound quality”. It’s supposed to get the bits to the endpoint. The bits have no sound either. They represent sound. After thhe bits have been processed by the DAC they still do not make sound. Even after they’ve passed through the DAC’s opamps there’s still no sound. Even the end amplifier doesn’t produce sound, only modulated current. When that current starts moving the magnets in your speakers, THEN there will be sound.

Seems to me there’s a lot of confusion in audioland about wich parts of the chain actually produce the final sound we call music.

[Chrislayeruk (Chris)]

Not sure I put that very well, the battery is in series in case of short power outages. Allowing the QNAP to shut down properly.

[thyname]

Starting anything with “improved sound quality” in Roon forums is a blasphemy. It will guarantee the (unofficial) Roon Community police “intervention” right away. The same usual usual 3-4 names.

[Ken_Bauernfreund (Ken B)]

@Frank_Daman

@iamoneagain

their instructions they basically spell it out that the core is not meant to have best sound quality.

The core is not supposed to have “a sound quality”. It’s supposed to get the bits to the endpoint. The bits have no sound either. They represent sound. After thhe bits have been processed by the DAC they still do not make sound. Even after they’ve passed through the DAC’s opamps there’s still no sound. Even the end amplifier doesn’t produce sound, only modulated current. When that current starts moving the magnets in your speakers, THEN there will be sound.

Seems to me there’s a lot of confusion in audioland about wich parts of the chain actually produce the final sound we call music.

The operative phrase is “degrade audio performance”.

This is one of the definitions of “noise” in the dictionary: an electric disturbance in a communications system that interferes with or prevents reception of a signal or of information.

The confusion in some parts of the audioland stems from the faulty presumption that digital transmission is “perfect” and that bit perfect music players pass the bits perfectly at exactly the right time with no noise coming along for the ride.

The reason I provided the dictionary definition of noise was to point out that there are at least three things a music player must do: 1) pass the exact bits 2) pass them at the right time 3) minimize disturbances that could degrade audio performance. RAAT aims to address each of these. Real-time digital transmission isn’t easy, which is why Roon had to devise their own proprietary technology.

[Nic]

This has been quite the read.
Claude Shannon would be rolling in his grave.