What is Roon? My thoughts

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245

I have gone through the release notes from Mike Fass again. It shows that frustration and joy have been addressed since 2015. The perfect version has never existed and everything will continue to evolve. Simplified, it can be represented like this:

On August 26, 2015, there is version 1.1 more flexible, personalized, stable
On April 14, 2016, version 1.2 RAAT technology from a single source for all systems
On February 1, 2017, version 1.3 multi-zone usage and metadata detection improved
On May 26, 2017, there is ROCK
On December 18, 2017 there is version 1.4 improved radio algorithm
On May 3, 2018 the version 1.5 full MQA and Linn DS integration, version linking
On January 22, 2019 the version 1.6 Qobuz intergation, Roon radio and search improved
On November 26, 2019 the version 1.7 Cloud AI Valence with recommendations and Live Radio
On February 9, 2021 the version 1.8 new look and feel, expanded focus improved AI

I’m not surprised that Valence, AI and a further improved recommendation system are more of a headache data-wise now than just making something more stable. Tidal has been at it since 2015. There were major problems initially, but just 4 years later Qobuz was on board and doing development work up to version 1.8.

You wouldn’t believe it, but a new look & feel was the biggest excitement and now we don’t want to let Roon continue learning with AI Valence, but just stability and status quo from yesterday. This is going to be a dead end, as is the delusion of ever better sound quality that completely misses the market. Here it needs a snake oil at horrendous prices that runs separately as a very exclusive by-product hand-picked and signed.

I feel caught, because I also still playfully engaged with my version 1.7 several times until I really put it aside. I also wanted to try JRiver and Audirvana yet…

You don’t get any depth or satisfaction that way. An existing alternative is enough when Roon or the Internet makes problems temporarily in the release change.

So I am always double up to date, can share experiences and think it is with software like with the lottery. If it runs 1 million times without errors on different hardware super well, the support has nevertheless with each release change so much to do that it is difficult to react promptly in each individual case.

…and as is impressively reported here, other software companies do not fare any better at times. Even Peter Pawlowski a really experienced and old hand can only maintain his passion as co-founder of Winamp and developer of Foobar2000 properly with the community. Reporting bugs is our duty, being patient is also our duty if we want to participate in the development. The fact that Foobar2000 still runs as a 32bit application and every customer has to make it fancy by himself shows that the most important thing (the solid foundation) is not neglected. Problem-free without change into the good future goes nowhere!

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246

Perhaps only for those who are excited by such cruft.

Personally, I’d like it to just stop stopping in the middle of a playlist. And I’d be happy with a command-line interface – maybe Emacs bindings.

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247

After all, there are these classic prejudices:

Go shopping for a dress with your wife and you’ll see that even after the 20th fitting it’s still not the right one.

Are audiophiles different with their look and feel, their equipment and software needs?

EMACS are the solution :rofl:

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248

I use Acourate for room correction. In my opinion, you get better results than with Dirac (which I own too)
I bought Ulli Brueggemanns Preamp, which allows loading Acourate files also to be used with other digital and analogue devices. I get fantastic results. The learning curve is steeper than with Dirac, but it really pays off.
As I said, as much as I would like to use Audirvana Studio as a backup, I could not get any satisfactory results. In my view, there are way too many bugs, combined with a clunky interface. It might have a use for streaming if they repair their UPnP implementation.
My Dac is the MolaMola Tambaqui. With this one, I could not find any better sounding combination than with Roon. For me, sound discussions are done.

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To achieve their form of Room Correction, they do too many DA to AD conversions every time they process the signals. I want to mess with the original file the least way possible. Plus I think Software Convolutions filters do a better job of RC. IMHO…I should mention that these convolutions are made from Microphone measurements of your systems output.

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I am with Roon since the beginning in 2015 (2 lifetime subscription).
Roon has improved substantially since. Roon has allowed me to organize my music in ways I never imagined before. I have a huge local database and for me Roon is essential. Yes, there are problems from time to time (like the last version), but I would not want to miss Roon for my musical life.

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251

How do you integrate Acourate into Roon? Is it via a convolution filter and so you can use an ethernet connection to your streamer/DAC or do you need to connect via USB to your DAC?

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I’m only two and a half years in, so my time frame is different. I may also have been a bit provocative, but I do feel that Roon could do more on certain fronts, especially with regard to sound quality. Of course, I know that it’s impossible to satisfy everybody.

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My Dac is connected via network. MolaMola Tambaqui is Roon Ready.
You just add Convolution Filters in your Roon Core. These filters are created via the Acourate Software and these files are ready for usage in Roon. No manipulation required. You just load them.
For Audirvana you load a VST3 file, which is also created by the software.

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In the beginning, there were really some shaky releases. It got better after the 64bit version was introduced.
Sound wise there is nothing to be improved with Roon, well in my ears. There is a lot of fantasy involved with different sounding software.

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Larry, I do not care what, if any form of digital room correction you prefer. But your post is not allowed to be ignorant of pertinent facts. Your post needs correction, pun intended.

Claiming that multiple D/A and A/D conversions “destroys the original sound” is hyperbole that almost certainly would not stand up to level matched ABX testing.

Regardless, Dirac Live does not require multiple D/A and A/D conversions, full stop. A Dirac Live software application plugin running on a CPU or physical hardware component without ADC or DAC cannot perform D/A or A/D conversions. Impossible.

AJ

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Performing your own in room measurements, then generating universally compatible convolution filters is a great way to go. But does Thierry provide new convolution filters from your new measurements every time that you move your loudspeakers or room furnishings a few inches? Let alone if you change loudspeakers or rearrange your room. Because any of the aforementioned requires new in room measurements, hence new room correction filters.

That is why doing your own measurements but inputting that measurement data into a software/hardware application, such as Dirac Live, can provide flexibility and longevity.

AJ

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The CXN and the V2 will always upsample everything from 192khz to 384khz.

You can do upsampling to 192khz in roon.

The CXN has no native DSD playback. It internally works with pcm.

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Yes he does. If I have to move mine then I carefully and accurately mark the floor and measure all the distances to put them back as they were. If permanently moving then it’s a new reading and he happily creates new filters at a much reduced price. Its not as if you will be moving them all the time though is it. The idea is get them in best position then use DSP and leave them. I had to change my room layout and I changed speakers so both these required new readings. I tried using rew myself and never managed to get it to sound how I wanted it unlike Thierry. Cost of Dirac system would have been way more and not as flexible for my setup and would have have had multiple ADC and DAC stages.

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How grateful I can be to have ruined my ears with good music early on so that I no longer need such optimized room solutions, because the acoustic solution directly at the ear is superior to everything. :rofl:

…or the clueless will never learn what he is missing? :rage:

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260

Well, first of all what the OP did was not complaining, but contemplating about Roon in his usecase, stating the good, bad and the ugly :innocent:

If you are not experiencing any problems, that is simply wonderful, enjoy yourself. But this does not mean that the problems do not exist in other use cases.

I know it is modern to only talk about how wonderful everything is and critical views are seen as evil. We have all become very snowflaky.

In my job - actually helping people improve - I see what is before me, congratulate the positive and then concentrate on what is not so great and how to fix it. This really works - might be a bit old school.

Others just say all is wonderful and leave it as it is - Might be very cozy and lovely - but nothing gets better.

Obviously we all care greatly about Roon, that is why we have paid, roam this board and put in endless hours grooming our libraries (if we are hoarders).
Therefore in this SUPPORT forum users point out stuff that does not work.

I am also one of those people that go to the doctor when something is wrong and not when I feel great (well I should - but that is a different story)

Criticism is actually a form of love and caring - think about it.

So now lets continue happily ranting, complaining, crying and listening to great music :smiley:

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261

This post makes all the difference, thanks for that. Gladly I let you help me, take your profitable thoughts and also accept criticism. I understand that love is blind and undivided can turn into hate. There may even be an algorithm at work. Facebook once used that to increase advertising revenue. Real fascination is always accompanied by frustration. We have understandable feelings when things are going well or dead silent, stuttering or disruptive.

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I remember why I opted for different Room Correction… The Dirac starts working on the Analog signal post DAC…so it takes the results of your DAC, switches your DAC’s Analog back to Digital does the room correction then converts the digital back to analog…basically undoing all the work your DAC did to bring you a quality signal.

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I know that but the only way to get Audirvana Studio to play to the CXN was to upsample in software before it went to the device. I am not opposed to upsampling per se but I do like an option as to who does it !

The other nice bit of AS with the CXN is that once you start an album there is no way to stop it, skip it etc. the controls simply don’t work. You have to use another app to control it . It’s been like this since the beginning ie nearly a year …

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Theirry will rerun your latest measurements at a reduced price if you had done any changes you feel it’s worth re-measuring.

“But does Thierry provide new convolution filters from your new measurements every time that you move your loudspeakers or room furnishings a few inches? Let alone if you change loudspeakers or rearrange your room. Because any of the aforementioned requires new in room measurements, hence new room correction filters.”

All of the above stands to reason you want to re measure. But if none of those previously conditions exist, you’re good to go…which makes sense…