Why does Roon Radio favor streaming?

I’m not at all suggesting removing Tidal and Qobuz from radio. A slider would just enable it to fit more different occasions or desires.

You can already limit radio to your library easily. There’s a toggle for that. A slider just gives more control to do mostlylocal with some streaming.

I remembered seeing that once upon a time, but I went looking for it a month or so back and couldn’t find it. I looked again before posting and still couldn’t find the setting. Where is it?

On the Queue page, under the 3 button menu as shown above.

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Thanks. Putting this setting in the Settings section would be just too simple.

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I see this behavior all the time. Just now I started a brief Roon Radio session based on Love & Money’s Halleluiah Man. Below is the log, cleaned up bit but with all the tracks that Radio played. In bold are the tracks for which I have FLACs in my library, all part of a complete album ripped from CD. I count 18 tracks played after the seed. Radio streamed all of those, including 8 tracks that I have in my local library. Actually I have two different versions of Roachford’s Cuddly Toy as well, on compilation albums, but correctly tagged and associated with a composition. My library holds roughly 1,750 albums and 24,000 tracks. Happy to provide whatever diagnostics you need.

08/28 15:55:34 Trace: [zone 818v3] auto-swim based on Love and Money - Halleluiah Man

08/28 15:55:36 Trace: [818v3] [Lossless, 16/44 FLAC => 16/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Scarlet - All About Eve
08/28 15:55:39 Trace: [streamingmediafile] finished caching http://ab-pr-fa.audio.tidal.com/1912192/dc123ac4a589c6fbb2be8717bfcf7443_37.m4a

[LOADING @ 0:00] I’m Still Waiting - River City People
08/28 15:55:42 Trace: [mlradio] [2] accepting 129:0:6694470 from Tidal

08/28 15:55:47 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Davy - Danny Wilson
08/28 15:55:47 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:55:47 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:55:53 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] I Will Walk With You - Bruce Hornsby & the Range
08/28 15:55:53 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:55:53 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:56:01 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Cuddly Toy (Feel for Me) - Roachford
08/28 15:56:01 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:56:01 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:56:11 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Circus Lights - Deacon Blue
08/28 15:56:11 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:56:11 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:56:15 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Over My Shoulder - Mike + the Mechanics
08/28 15:56:15 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:56:15 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:56:17 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Don’t Tell Me - The Adventures
08/28 15:56:17 Trace: [mlradio] [2] [music/mlradio] GetNextItem(1 / 14)

08/28 15:56:24 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] S.O.S. - Go West
08/28 15:56:24 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:56:24 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:56:29 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Somewhere In My Heart - Aztec Camera
08/28 15:56:29 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:56:29 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:56:34 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Heaven Help Us All - Wet Wet Wet
08/28 15:56:34 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)

08/28 15:56:41 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Meet Me in the Morning - Everything But the Girl
08/28 15:56:41 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:56:41 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:56:52 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Standing In the Light - Level 42
08/28 15:56:52 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:56:52 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:57:08 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] He Looks Like Spencer Tracy Now - Deacon Blue

08/28 15:57:17 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] You Remain an Angel - Danny Wilson
08/28 15:57:17 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:57:17 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:57:28 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Don’t Look Down - Go West
08/28 15:57:28 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:57:32 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] Me and Bobby D - Everything But the Girl
08/28 15:57:32 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:57:32 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done

08/28 15:57:48 Trace: [818v3] [LowQuality, 24/44 TIDAL AAC => 24/44] [100% buf] [LOADING @ 0:00] People - Level 42
08/28 15:57:48 Info: ComputeSwimType(LimitToSeed=False, PerformerIds.Count=0, ComposerIds.Count=0)
08/28 15:57:48 Trace: GOT RESPONSE done
08/28 15:57:48 Trace: [meridian] [10.0.1.150:57345] GOT RESPONSE ack

Same here…some months ago Radio was a good mix of local + tidal tracks, now it’s simply tidal radio, leaving my library tracks with better quality out of the streaming process.

Any clue? Something that was working ok it’s now broken.

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Exactly what I am finding. I love searching for an artist and then using the Play Now button to just randomly play songs from that artist. I find the following almost always happens:
Under library versions of an album I have a local 24-96 copy that is marked as the preferred copy and a 16-44.1 Tidal copy. The songs selected are always from a Tidal 16-44.1 copy, may not even be the Tidal version in my library. I also have cases where I only have a local copy of an album under versions (thus just a single copy of the album in my library) and this is ignored and songs are chosen from Tidal copies of the same album.

I often see Roon choosing Qobuz (previously Tidal) versions of tracks I have on NAS. Because I own a CD rip or download, I would almost certainly never ‘favourite’ a Qobuz version or add it to my library, so it surprises me that Roon tends to pick these versions at all.

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@danny is this the sort of example data you are looking for? In my experience Roon Radio largely ignores my local library. I realize that —for most— streaming is the future but for someone like me, who still collects and curates his own music, Roon ignoring my albums in favor or Tidal is borderline insulting :-). I once heard that it’s considered an insult to bring a bottle of wine to a French person’s home. What, my wine is not good enough? Not sure if that’s true but that’s what this Roon Radio behavior feels like.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? It could mean a few different things, for example it could mean that you want Roon radio to pick music in your library only, or maybe just more often… or it could mean that if it picks music from streaming, but you have a local file that is the same content, it should play your local file

Because Roon Radio is supposed to add value by letting the user discover new, related music, I fully applaud a bias towards streaming content.

Now if only the bloody feature would actually DO this instead of stupidly iterating through a limited set of artists and albums when seeded with classic Dad Rock, I’d be on my way to actually liking Roon (add a serious search function to that and I’ll stop complaining).

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I mean the latter, as shown in my post earlier. Primarily because when I have an album in my library, the primary version is usually a pressing I chose very deliberately. If I have it in my library, I’m not interested in hearing the Tidal version. But also because I have a low res Tidal subscription that I use mostly for sampling music and the occasional party playlist.

Right, this is the point. Roon will play a streaming file when I know I have that track in my library, in a hi res or other version I have chosen. It is not a huge deal if the intention is “radio listening” in a sense but I don’t really understand why Roon wouldn’t select the version I have designated as primary.

I also don’t love it when Roon selects the track from a “best of” compilation instead of the track from the album that is primary, but maybe that logic is harder to defeat. Just sometimes the best-of compilation version is edited, shortened, etc.

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This is untrue. Roon will play local / higher quality versions if they match.

If you are in a situation where you think this is happening, then your local copy lacks an equivalence to the album Roon Radio chose to play from.

For example, you might be in this situation if:

  • if your local content is high resolution, but it has not been identified by Roon and populated with metadata.
  • if your local content is from a different edition, print, remastering, etc… basically, if the album has been identified, but was identified as something different.
  • if your local content was misidentified as a different edition, print, remastering, etc from the album on which Roon Radio chose to play content
  • if you Roon Radio decided to play a different edition, print, remastering, etc from what you have in your library.

There is a lot of places where this can not match up, but in the cases where it does match up, it’ll prefer the higher quality local content.

@soundserge – the way to confirm that actual equivalence has been achieved is to visit the album that was played from tidal and look in the versions tab to see if your local files are listed.

OK, just did another Roon Radio session, starting with China Crisis from my library. I thumbed down all tracks for which I didn’t have matching tracks/albums in my library. Not a single track was played from my library, while I can see local matching albums for all of these in the Versions tab. Note that all these tracks are streaming from Tidal (low quality signal path, no waveform):

All subsequent tracks I give a thumbs up are Tidal versions also. I have all these albums in my Library.

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@danny - these screenshots confirm that equivalence was achieved, would you agree?

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Pretty sure I’m seeing this ‘problem’ too - and I also find it both strange & slightly annoying.

The only thing I’m wondering about is whether Roon Radio chooses a Tidal album version which is perhaps the USA release, and my tags specifically list the EU release version?
Not sure the algorithm’s that sensitive though.

I’ve had a similar hypothesis as I moved from the US to Europe last year and it’s possible Tidal might think I live in the US based on the payment method. Like you, I’m not sure that factors into this.

Hmmm. I haven’t used Radio in a while but right now Roon Radio picked Gimme Shelter - a Qobuz 24/88 version when I have a 24/176 that is the primary version in my local collection.

Click on the now playing track, go to the Let it Bleed album, then Versions, and both are under there. Total track equivalence and yet Roon Radio did not play Primary Version.

Still sounded good. But odd behavior.

Update: I noticed this happening repeatedly with very common classic rock songs that I clearly have like 10-20 copies of, all from albums identified by Roon.

There’s no chance, really, that Roon Radio always plays the identified primary version of a track. Clearly not the case.

Further Update: after another 2-hour Roon Radio session, every song Roon played, I have in my local collection, identified. Roon did not play one local track.

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