Been discussing this on another forum as a member there is struggling to get all Roon Ready devices to play in sync. Surely the point of RAAT and the Roon Ready status is to remove the potential for sync drifts it’s supposed to target 1ms delay. So why is it that in some instances you still have to adjust delays on devices to get them in sync! What can cause this, core not up to the task, network? It makes bold claims in the spec for RAAT about synchronisation but does it really live up to it?
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It is probably any number of areas. Network synchronization is fairly mature across the internet, but a lot of hard work on standards, interfaces, testing, etc. was required. Corporate LAN and WAN networks can be configured similarly with expensive clocks and other servers if these networks require that.
Home networks are another issue. What Roon has accomplished by RAAT is really something special. My wife, a musician who does not care about speaker sound quality or other audiophile things, noticed when I was playing two synchronized zones (AirPlay of all things) across the house and asked how I did it. Even Apple’s AirPlay drifts and moves out of synch pretty quickly.
However, there are many factors, including as you note the server and processing load, the network in the house which is probably a mix of WiFi and cables (either straight Ethernet, or coax/MOCA or even fiber) and all of these interfaces, and then the end devices.
I believe between the network and the end devices are the main culprits. As many audio vendors have created their own systems (Sonos, Bluesound, Apple, Google, others) and have approached their hardware and software systems in a closed environment, adding RAAT may be just different enough to throw time synchronization off for RAAT. The other aspect is how buffering occurs on each device, and even something as simple as when a DAC or streamer or end audio player starts playing/passing data and how much control RAAT has over that input.
30 years ago(!) there was so much intense and insance work on how Ethernet would scale and compete against Token Ring and other network architectures. This resulted in major investments in companies and Ethernet hubs, not switches, that cost a few thousand dollars for 4-8 ports., and switches that were priced at multiples of that. Now you can get a 5- or 8-port Ethernet switch for $15-$25 at your local retailer that would have been beyond cuttng edge in the early '90s.
Hi! I am the person referenced. Kit is pc running win10 x64, intel i5, 8gb memory for the nucleus/core. Connected kit is a Gold Note DS- 10, Auralic Vega G2 and a Bluesound Node 2022 version in separate rooms. Network is 2Gb in through the wall to the router (Orange), 1Gb Lan to an Orange wifi6 extender/acess point. network speeds are 53mbps at the furthest location, 836mbps at the closest one.
Synchronisation does not happen across any two of the devices, and obviously then not across the three. I haven’t yet had time to play with the manual (advanced) settings but if I set the source timing to the most delayed device the the others should find it easier to time to that slowest device? Thanks for any tips on the best way to set the advanced settings re delay and timing.
Edit. Browsing another thread finds this statement
“ I believe AURALiC is unable to meet the demand for max delay for group synchronization required for Roon Certification”
Is this true?
The farthest endpoint network speed seems a slow for an extender connected with an Ethernet cable. One of the challenges of home networking is using the service provider router and network equipment. An opportunity exists because you have Ethernet cables running to your endpoints and network devices.
If this is possible, have you considered upgrading your network equipment to a third-party router and mesh system? Service providers tend to purchase older and less capable home networking equipment than what is available in the open market. There are many valid reasons for this, but this equipment falls behind in technology and capabilities. Even when new, they are not necessarily the most high-end compared to the open market. Case in point, when my AT&T fiber network was installed in 2013, AT&T was not authorizing the installation technicians to activate the 802.11ac (WiFi 5) network. The technician saw I had my own networking equipment and recommended that I keep using it.
If Orange allows you connect another router to your Orange router, it may be possible to create a more up-to-date network using a mesh system from ASUS, Netgear, or other companies that should be much more robust, especially in terms of how many devices can be connected and each device’s individual connection speeds. This then should improve your Roon experience with the downstream devices.
Thanks Robert. The Orange kit here in France (wifi6) is faster than my Orbi mesh system which is wifi5. I shan’t be upgrading to a third party wifi6 just yet.
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Hi @Bruss — glad to see you made it to this community.
It may be worth mentioning your experience with other (non-Roon) synchronized streaming to all your zones. Did you experience lags? What resolutions were you able to achieve? This might help indicate if there is a network problem even before you added Roon to the mix.
Also, if your router is Wifi 6, I assume that it also has simultaneous bands for Wifi 5 and earlier. In any case, for the furthest/slowest devices, you may want to experiment with changing the Wifi channel to one that competes with fewer other networks. There are tools that help you see how many nearby Wifi networks there are in your channel so that you can select one that is more isolated. The Auto channel feature of routers does not always get it right.
Is your core connected to your network via Ethernet or wifi? Roon strongly recommends Ethernet for the core.
Core is ethernet. Devices are all wifi. I have this morning been playing again.
If connect the Nodes with the ds-10 the synch is almost perfect. When I connect the Vega the synch delay comes in. If I connect just the Vega with the DS-10 the synch again is almost perfect. I therefore suspect that a combination of inherent device processing delay, plus Roon attempting to time three separate makes of device becomes a little too much. Whether an increase in processing power or a dedicated Nucleus would solve this or not, I don’t know.
Re non Roon. Synch is perfect with three nodes together, or with four lms sqbx, three Duets and a Touch.
@Bruss it is puzzling. the only way to determine if it is network vs the combination of devices from different vendors is to temporarily wire them all with ethernet or at least bring them closer to the wifi router (or the wifi router closer to them). Your likely do not have the appetite for such experimentation as you are not (yet 
) sold on the other benefits of Roon. You could try experimenting with the wifi channels as I mentioned above. That should be a quick test.
I hope it works out for you. Even if the multi-zone streaming doesn’t work as you would like, I would suggest that you take the time to explore Roon’s other features while you still have the free trial. Good luck!
I am indeed not looking for the other benefits of Roon. My only reason to use Roon is to stream hires files 24/192 across three rooms.
I don’t like to be beaten though. I could do as you say but I am not going to be rewiring the house to accommodate a wired lan. The problem seems to be pointing to a communication difficulty between Auralic devices and Roon. I can stream 24/92 files from my pc to either one of the Nodes, or to the DS-10 via Roon, but streaming to any of my two Auralic devices, Aries G1 or the Vega direct the stream stops and Roon gives me an error message - files loading slowly.
Using either the Node or the Auralic control software, the same file streams perfectly, no dropouts.
Re experimentation. You haven’t seen my place and the positioning, re positioning and lan cables stretched across rooms and up the stairs, temporarily, as I keep telling the better half. 
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One thing is Roon does send uncompressed pcm regardless of source files. If you material is flac or streaming then the others will be sending flac which is less demands on network and may be tipping point for the wifi. Are the Auralics on the latest firmware, there have been issues with firmware on Auralics and Roon before .
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Ok final piece of the puzzle. Plugging the Vega and the PC directly in to the router via Lan and I can play the 24/192 files. So Roon plus Auralic plus wifi becomes a problem.
Roon plus Node, plus Gold Note plus wifi is not a problem.
The Auralic are not as easy to play with Roon, as the Node and Gold Note are.
Likely the WiFi implementation is a bit ■■■■■ Do they support 5ghz or are they 2.4ghz. The latency in 2.4 if in a very heavily saturated area might be too much for the uncompressed streams Roon sends. If your using one WiFi access point on 2.4gjz it will easily get over utilised if it’s not great to start with you saying one is 54mbs seems to be using 2.4ghz. Get a WiFi scanner on you phone and check how much interference you have from others WiFi. 2 4ghz in my area is practically unusable due to this as so many competing systems. All WiFi in the immediate area will be chatting to your network and stealing airtime which lead to latency which leads to dropped streams.
5ghz on Auralic and Nodes, 2.4 ghz on theDS-10.
I’m using a phone scanner as well as a network package sniffer. It is definitely an Auralic/Roon interaction problem, probably timing somewhere, rather than a direct network problem.
Fair enough does sound like you have isolated the issue. Be interesting to get some insight though as to why those are affected so.
It should be sync as long as Core can get feedback from the DAC (and I’ve opened bugs on this and they have been fixed so maybe you’ve identified a bug?). It’s unclear exactly which endpoints / DACs you are using. Some obvious things that will cause RAAT to not sync correctly:
- Bluetooth - RAAT has no knowledge of the extra latency BT adds.
- Any post-processing in the DAC. This would include Room Correction, EQ, Active Speakers with digital xovers, etc.
- High Jitter - if your network has high jitter RAAT won’t compensate fast enough and things will drift. Testing jitter on the network is not easy but will be higher in areas of low wifi / congested wifi.
Source can be a factor as well. I’m not sure why but I have better luck with some sources some of the time than others.
Please provide more details on all your endpoints, your network, sq footage of house, etc. and maybe I can provide some suggestions.
Hi
Thanks for your suggestions and offer of help. As this was a want rather than a need and I have other solutions I am not going to pursue this further. It was my attempt to maximise use of what I have at the moment but it isn’t my long term solution, so any more time spent will be more than I want to spend. Thanks to everyone for your inputs. It has helped me to understand a lot more about the process.
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Wifi is inherently bad for audio as it uses non full duplex transmission and has a lot of collision traffic as a result. wire all the endpoints and see if that helps…but the Auralic might be a problem still - if its design related issues.
I think the solution, with Auralic and Roon is to have it hard wired. I expect that improving the wifi network speed could have the same effect. The thing is, the Nodes and the Gold Note do not need this, so yes its an Auralic effect with Roon.
I shall be moving to a full Auralic system in these three rooms through this year. As the Auralic system does synch with my wifi (tested with Altair G1 and Vega G1) I expect my new installation will when I finally put it together.
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