AES end point Quality / sounds / advices

Hi everyone,

I hope to avoid sparking a heated debate, but I have a question about Roon bridges, Roon endpoints, and Roon Ready devices, specifically regarding AES output.

I’m really enjoying Roon; it’s been working great since I switched to an M1 with 16GB of RAM, with a library of over 180,000 songs (and growing). As a professional mixing engineer using top-notch equipment daily, I’m curious about a fundamental question.

Given that Roon is bit-perfect, do different digital-to-digital converters (DDCs) produce radically different sounds? Does this result in a massive difference?

I own a Bricasti M1SE. For example, would the Bricasti M5 or an endpoint like a Raspberry Pi with AES output (Roopi) make a significant difference? Especially considering that many of these units, like the Holo Audio, run on a P4 inside (if I’m not mistaken).

I understand that clocking is an issue, as well as jitter, etc. Does this mean that the only true difference between these units is the clock and the power supply? I acknowledge that a linear power supply can make a difference, but still, we’re not discussing analog here.

Thank you for sharing your experiences!

P

Ps : yes there is difference between an USB input and AES . I clearly prefer AES . Again both being digitals inputs

Have you considered having the Bricasti updated with the network attachment? Cheaper than a M5.

yes I did :slight_smile:
But having multiple DAC I would have less flexibility …
really looking for something stand alone :slight_smile:

Hasn’t this question already been done to death, resuscitated multiple times, dragged out the back and kicked around a bit more and still it lives on like the undead :man_zombie:

https://community.roonlabs.com/search?q=does+transport+matter

Regardless of where you sit on the answer, is there really anything new to add that hadn’t already been discussed ad nauseam in previous threads?

(sorry, maybe I just woke up in the wrong side of bed this morning, but just can’t help but think this question has already been answered, or at least discussed, multiple times already)

@j_a_m_i_e thanks for your kind answer :slight_smile: loving it .

I am taking about the AES specifically. not the rest . but …maybe someone could point me to a better link ?

Sorry if I came off a bit blunt :wink:

As a mixing engineer I expect you already know this, but with modern interfaces, what is true for S/PDIF is also true for AES.

My response would be that there is no audible difference between competently designed devices. AES is a well documented standard, as long as both the devices you are connecting conform to that standard why would there be audible difference. If there are compatibility issues they will surface as clicks & dropouts, not a subtle improvement in audio quality. But I’ve probably just resuscitated the debate myself by saying that :man_facepalming:

2 Likes

:slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: no problem I understand that those subject goes into people nerve ahahhaha
yep right (AES/SPDIF). (I know about. it )
I get your point of course . but when I see some AES end point reaching from 300 to 2500euros for one simple purpose (and again this is not a dac or anthing that goes analog / and neither a clock story (If I got it right ) I was just wondering if someone tried both. this forum is amazing and full of great info … but aes seems not a lot debated (for obvious reason-old protocol - limited etc etc ).
maybe then the debate would be … (but that I have to dig more ) … the M5 seems to be Roon ready … and the HOLO RED is a Roon bridge .
and thank everybody for the time and info !

Yes, an inexpensive Raspberry Pi can compete sonically with Roon endpoints costing thousands of $$$. My 8Gb Pi4 is made to output AES/EBU because that more robust S/PDIF sounds best to me into Meridian DSP9 active speakers.

  • Wired Ethernet dedicated to audio runs through higher spec switches, filters and singlemode fiber. Details available upon request.
  • Power supplies are critical. The RPi itself sits on a IanCanada PurePi II battery bed charged by a quality lps.
  • Instead of a AES HAT, Pi USB goes to a Singxer SU-6 DDC which converts, and further cleans, the signal.
  • Audiolinux operating system isolates Pi CPU cores and allows Diretta network protocol implementation to minimize noise at the endpoint.

I would rather have a Grimm MU1, but that would cost several times what I spent.

@Brad_Burnside thanks a lot for the advice !
Amazing … I am learning every day :slight_smile:

Yes I would be VERY interested about the switch …
And I didn’t know about the Diretta :slight_smile:
Need to do my home work here !
Thanks !
P

Would the SU-6 DDC be like the Holo audio red (purpose I mean )

I am unclear about the Red. Does it function as both a streamer and a DDC (on the digital output) at the same time, or just one or the other?

Singxer takes only USB in, and coverts to multiple, simultaneous outputs for less than $700.

From what I read one or the other .(hope I am not mistaken / correct me if wrong )

I always have strange feeling with USB
In a studio environment the playback was ALWAYS superior with AES input . Probably due at the computer and studio setup…
Usb not as accurate … specially stereo field. And of course I can test with files that are not out yet .
At the really early stage of production.
But here we talk stereo. And playback with roon .
Which is a little bit different that have an aes out « on a pcie buss « and the file « in the computer it self …
But maybe I should retest …once again…

I know it sounds stupid … but could we go « Ethernet to Aes / « super straight ? (Kind of )
Let’s be clear I am NOT doubting everything you find out… just tring to understand fully :-)))

Current path for streaming music includes: ISP Zhone fiber modem (ONT using Jameco 12v lps) > Ubiquiti EdgeRouter X SFP (TeraDak 24v lps) > SFP optical singlemode fiber from router to Cisco Catalyst 2960 switch (12v iFi iPower X SMPS) > Blue Jeans CAT6 > 10Gtek FMC with Finisar FTLX1475D3BTL transceivers and Commscope singlemode fiber (Allo Nirvana 5v SMPS) > EtherREGEN switch (12v Sengterbelle lps) > Intel 7i7BNH NUC (ZERO ZONE 19v lps) running Roon Server under Audiolinux also connected by Blue Jeans CAT6 > cascaded Cisco Meraki switches modified by AudioPhool NL (12v Sengterbelle lps) > Shunyata Venom into ENO Ethernet filter > Pi4

AES3 (or S/PDIF) is a digital transmission protocol for data, it has no sound qualities of it’s own, it’s simply a means of transmitting already encoded PCM audio from A to B.

If the data doesn’t arrive for some reason, you’ll get dropouts, clicks and pops.

What you won’t get a subtle improvement, or degrading of sound stage or channel separation. The only way that can happen is if the analogue audio is altered before or after it is encoded to PCM, or as part of the PCM encoding process itself. AES doesn’t encode or decode analogue audio; therefore, it can’t alter it in the traditional analogue sense.

Ethernet «—» AES (super straight)

If by Ethernet, you mean a Roon RAAT supporting device with a regular Ethernet (TCP/IP) network port, then yes that is very easily achievable with a RPi with a AES3 Hat (or a S/PDIF hat with an AES convertor).

A RPi running Roon bridge (or the Roon SDK) [for example Ropieee] simply needs to pass the PCM data received from Roon out to the AES serial port on the HAT, it doesn’t even need to decode it, it’s just a case of serialising the PCM according to the AES3 protocol and sending it out.

As engineering tasks go it’s pretty straightforward, a competent electronics engineer would need to go some lengths to mess that up especially if using an off the shelf chip. This isn’t a task you need to throw money at and spending more money won’t gain you any improvements.

In fact, given that the low-level protocol for data transmission in AES3 and S/PDIF is largely identical, in most cases you can use a S/PDIF Hat with a basic AES3 convertor. The advantage of AES3 is better connectors and longer cable runs, both useful in a studio environment, rather than anything to do with sound quality.

But if your DAC has a USB input, then unless you need to locate your DAC on the other side other the room from your Roon RAAT device, I’d just use USB to serially transmit the PCM data. AES and S/PDIF are much older protocols than USB, which offers several advantages, one being that you can simple use a vanilla RPi running Ropieee as a Roon (RAAT) network bridge, without the need for a Hat or any additional devices. Surely that is as close to Ethernet (Roon RAAT) «—» DAC (super straight) as you can get?

2 Likes

@j_a_m_i_e @Brad_Burnside

Thanks for the very accurate answers !

Will go trough all this :slight_smile:

Ok even if different digital interface sounds different that is a fact . But I get your point :slight_smile:
Yes I was talking about RAAT sorry.

Ok. Then I have a question … if the ropiee per exemple … is a solution … then can you guide me where is the actual « clocking « for the aes out « is happening and how ? On the rasperry ?
Another question … why am I hearing a difference between a USB input and and AES input ? (To be honest I don’t want to open any debate :-))))) ahhahaha really .
But I get your point .
Now maybe you could help me with the difference of a bridge or roon ready in that case ? Any sonic advantage or is the roon ready just a manner of having something fully « ready » ?
In the case is the Bricasti M5 per exemple … for you do you think I will (should) get the same result ?
Thanks a lot for your time !
P

On the HAT which will have it’s own clock.

Most probably a dual 44.1/48kHz clock circuit, which will also support exact multiples of those frequencies.

Assuming you are really hearing a difference, and only some hard data or a blind A/B test would confirm this, as we are all (myself included) susceptible to sighted biases.

My guess it that the two protocols are being treated differently, either after the data has been deserialised by your DAC, or before the data has been serialised and sent by your source device.

As I mention above, the two protocols themselves don’t deal with audio (in the analog sense) they deal with transmitting data, which doesn’t have the subtle sound characteristics you describe, only pops, clicks and dropouts if data is lost.

If you are sure you can hear a difference. I’d be inclined to route the analog output of your DAC back though an ADC interface on a PC and record the response in say REW or a DAW for both scenarios, then overlay the plots, if you see a difference then that will give you an indication of where they differ and maybe why ie. do they just differ in amplitude? Otherwise we are just speculating.

Personally I’d want to know why they were different, as they shouldn’t be and it would make me worry something wasn’t setup correctly in one or other case. So I’d do the above and plot both outputs so I had something concrete to visually compare (and share).

Mainly just a name difference, Roon Bridge is the software package anyone can download and install themselves on a PC, Mac, Linux or a Raspberry Pi.

Roon Ready refers to a Roon certification program that ensures a commercial hardware device works with Roon. These devices use a special ‘commercial’ version of Roon Bridge called the Roon SDK that is only available to vendors who have had their devices tested by Roon.

The main difference is you get a nice custom icon when you use a ‘Roon Ready’ device. Roon may also be able to control the devices volume and other settings. this is particular useful for say an amp where you want Roon to control the devices volume. It also lets Roon read and display the settings of the device. This is also why USB is useful as a protocol, as being two-way Roon can read the status and other settings of the upstream DAC.

Sound wide there is zero difference between either Roon Bridge vs SDK (Roon Ready).

In terms of common RPi Operating Systems.

Ropieee uses Roon Bridge behind the scenes. On first launch I believe it downloads and installs the Roon Bridge package. This approach allows it to work with a range of HAT and USB DAC without each needing to be certified by Roon.

HiFiBerry develop their own Raspberry Pi OS (HiFiBerryOS), similar to Ropieee. But it only works with their HATs. But because it only works with their HATS they have been certified by Roon and use the commercial Roon SDK (behind the scenes) and their devices are labeled Roon Ready.

But audio wise the HiFiBerry HATs sound exactly the same regardless of whether you use Ropieee or HiFiBerryOS as the operating system. The main difference is Roon can control the device volume of the HiFiBerry Digi+ Hats when using HiFiBerryOS as it used the lower level Roon SDK, something you can’t do with this HATs when using Ropieee, which uses the more general Roon Bridge package. If your using a fixed volume level or adjust volume in Roon via DSP it makes no difference.

1 Like

I think you do want to open the debate. As @j_a_m_i_e said, these questions have been asked and answered multiple times.

1 Like

Shouldn’t unless there is a problem with your DAC. Difference yes but not significant.

I’ll admit I didn’t read all the responses.

You need to keep in mind that AES sound quality will be impacted by the digital transport more than USB. USB will be more dependent on the quality of the USB input at the DAC. In these discussions I always try and refocus the back to the DAC. If the DAC has an excellent, isolated, USB input I like to use it. If the USB input was an afterthought to tick a box on the sales literature then use another input. So, in a way, we shouldn’t be debating different interfaces at the digital transport but really we need to frame these discussions in respect to the quality of that input at the DAC.

2 Likes