I felt kinda the same…… then… I bought an Apple TV and set it up with my AVR and decent Atmos setup… crazy good 
I’m just very skeptical that Apple (or Amazon or Google etc etc) are going to do it right (as defined by us, the audiophile community).
- I don’t think they’ll give us smooth parametric EQ. It’ll be a 4-10 step hard/discrete “ladder.” Perfect for making great big V sound signatures, but not particularly well equipped for nuance…
- I don’t think they’ll let my own (FLAC/AAC/MP3) files live side-by-side with theirs and give me access to both within the same GUI
- I don’t think they’ll fully support (“play nice”) with all the kinds of devices I actively/regularly use outside of their own ecosystem…
- I don’t think they’ll give us the same kind of signal chain transparency that Roon does… “hey sure I’m playing back a 24/96 file, what happens after I start to play it, on your unique setup and string of gear? That’s your problem…”
- For wireless playback over Google Cast, I take full advantage of Roon’s ability to downsample multiples of 44.1 and 48 to 44.1 and 48 (because anything above it just doesn’t work, for me, via Google Cast)… via other protocols, like RAAT, I don’t need that sort of capability, because 24/96 and 24/192 works just fine wirelessly on my network (via RAAT). Another indication (to me at least) that Roon has their i’s dotted and t’s crossed… Roon’s RAAT simply works better than Google Cast on my network. I swear it sounds “narrower” to, but who knows…
In my country, Tidal and Qobuz are not officially available. I can still connect Tidal through another country, but Qobuz does not work because it does not accept payment from my card.
Tidal has no Hi-Res support other than MQA. Apple offers a full-fledged Hi-Res up to 24/192. I want to listen to Hi-Res and from streaming services only Apple can give it to me.
It remains to understand Roon will help me with this or not.
You can use PayPal as payment option to get Qobuz. You won’t get Apple Music in Roon, it’s not viable unless Apple open up to them which is very unlikely to happen. You will have to use you phone/tablet or Mac to pump it into your DAC as that’s the only way you will get hires out of Apple Music for the foreseeable future.
I am sure Roon would do everything they can to add Apple Music and any other important service to their platform, but the streaming partner needs to be committed to do it as well.
It’s already easy enough to integrate an Apple Music library of purchased tracks and playlists into Roon. When I purchase music from HD Tracks (NativeDSD, etc.), or rip from CDs, I continue to manage the files in iTunes. This provides a payload of stored music for mobile use and also to seed Roon playlists. So Apple Music (/iTunes) and Roon already can coexist fairly well, up to a point.
For additional integration, I’d like to seen Roon and Apple address at least two limitations,:
- Playlist portability. One can import iTunes playlists into Roon, but AFAIK there is no way to export a Roon playlist to iTunes/Music.
- Independent streaming (which is what this thread seems to be about, mostly). Apple already has made Apple TV+ content available as a streaming service to some TVs without any need to buy the Apple TV hardware. Ditto for Apple Music, right?
Just as Roon users still need to log on to Tidal to access Tidal streams, they’d still need to log on to an Apple Music account to access Apple streams. This integration could be good for Apple, not only for the revenue, but also to help them fend off a court-ordered break-up of Apple services.
So I’m not too sure we’ll never see more integration. Apple already faces a Congressional ban on pre-loading first-party software. It may be in their own interest to open up the garden walls a little more, before Congress or the courts take a sledge hammer to them.
Sure, local files is easy.
Some options using Soundiiz. The issue here is identifying the files in iTunes. Roon is able to identify an incoming file in Local/Tidal/Qobuz.
The main sticking points are (as far as I understand it):
1- Getting Apple Music metada daily for new releases (there’s an AM API which might work as a pull here)
2- Ability to launch and route the stream to Roon - this requires authentication and a secure stream to Roon
Now, the authentication and streaming is already implemented in SONOS (for a very long time), so this is not totally new for AM.
I have to say that given AM’s already existing implementation (SONOS), and the fact that frankly they have no way currently to deliver their product fully, I am cautiously optimistic that they might work with Roon.
PS: Just checked Soundiiz and it only allows exporting iTunes playlists TO other services, not into iTunes.
PS2: I just connected Apple Music to Soundiiz. This seems to work in both directions. So if your iTunes playlists are available in Apple Music you’re done.
With this approach, we are unlikely to see at least some service in Roon.
Roon’s team must find other ways to integrate with streaming services, rather than giving an ultimatum to everyone and waiting for an answer alone.
Nokia was once too self-confident in their abilities, but did not notice how they lost the market and eventually left it.
Like I said, there are two parts:
1- Ability to request a stream and get that stream into Roon
2- Metadata
Part 1 is the most important, and there’s is NO WAY to do this without the streaming service cooperation. If they don’t provide a means for you to request a stream and get the data, how in this world are you going to stream it? This is so obvious that I am thinking I might be misunderstanding your post.
Part 2 is probably doable now as there is an AM API that you can query. But AM might not like a company for profit like Roon quering their db and might block it, so again you need cooperation.
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I think that if there is such a problem now, it is temporary. Access to the audio stream will most likely be provided.
Another thing is that Roon needs not only the data and metadata, but also a complete snapshot of the database to be able to launch services such as radio and recommendations for new songs. This is where I think everything ends, since streaming platforms are not ready to provide this, and Roon cannot fully work without it.
Well, if an API is provided to get streams into Roon, then that’s basically all that is needed. But assuming this is the case is a big leap.
As for metadata, there is an Apple API already available. I have not played yet with the Apple API (I am planning to with the python library available for that) but I presume it is possible to get incrementals.
What I will say in agreement with you is that Roon’s architecture MUST be such that the minimal amount is required from the streaming service. I don’t know whether this is the case or not.
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Even with an updated API that would allow using Apple’s streams via another player, which currently they do not allow, metadata is not what Roon need. They require a dump of the whole database. Roon does not search Tidal or Qobuz directly. It has a dump of their database in to their own and Roon searches this. This is why there are delays and often omissions compared to native Tidal and Qobuz it’s not at an API level. This is how Roon has been designed from day one and it’s what allows the level of editing, curation and integration it does with streaming. Without that you just have basic stuff which they won’t fall back to as it then becomes just another Audivarna or LMS type style of integration. Apple I cannot see allowing this, the same goes for Amazon and Spotify.
If your wanting Apple Music then your best sticking with thier app or go Sonos.
That’s what I would call a bad design, frankly. There is no reason for Roon not to be able to query changes in the db from yesterday, db’s have change timestamps. Whether that particular feature exists in the AM API, I don’t know.
SONOS is good for background music, nothing else. And I am saying this being the owner of 12 SONOS zones, including a home theater with a playbar, sub and surrounds. Apple’s Music app is also compromised. So I want other means.
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Non programmer laymen here. What’s the craic with this then MusicKit - Apple Developer is this not something Roon can work with?
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No not all nor can streamers or any other music playing app such as Audivarna etc. It’s for use of 3rd party app on a phone /tablet or a webpage to search and add to playlists or play through their API player or Apple Music. You need Apple Music installed to Authorise your app to be able to access it. Thats about it. You can’t plug it in to your own player software plus many other restrictions. It’s much the same as what Spotifies is but they give you connects API for hardware. Apple has zilch for that Airplay or Chromecast on Android is what you get.
The MusicKit is, I think, only a method to query the music database. You can do searches, etc but I don’t think it includes a facility to stream music. So Roon in principle could use this as a method to get metadata and updates, but bare in mind that a platform like Roon has a whole pile of architectural choices, and implementing a new method to get information and updates might be much harder to do than you would think.
I’m hopeful we will see Apple Music on more platforms, but I think it will take time, to put in place the required infrastructure to support a broader hardware/software ecosystem. Apple’s development teams are small and perhaps music isn’t as important as it once was to the company.
In addition to Apple’s own platforms, Android, Web apps and Sonos, Porsche offers AM in the Taycan and Mercedes-Benz recently announced it’s coming to it’s MBUX infotainment platform. How long before VW, BMW, JLR etc. are knocking on Apple’s door for the same access. Audio hardware manufacturers appear interested as do some software players so let’s wait and see what happens.
As I said, I think it’s going to take time for them to put the pieces in place to make this happen at scale. Whether it’s enough for Roon, time will tell, but it seems unlikely based on Roon’s previous comments.
Apple’s website clearly states:
Apple Music content can play directly in the browser. With MusicKit on the Web, users can stream songs, music videos, and radio from Apple Music on your website using MusicKit Web Components or a player you’ve customized using JavaScript.
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Why so much guessing?
Just ask @danny what he knows about current/latest MusicKit and what Roon could do with it (and what is still lacking for Roon).
Hopefully he can give up to date info and end the guessing.
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