Lol, I got you bro. I think your work is brilliant!
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Back to price being important rather than fidelity.
What ASR teaches people is that you wasted $4,000 on a DAC. Provably. They save that money and are better for it. That should be reason enough for anyone to read ASR. Where else you are going to get information that saves you this much on your DAC alone? And teaches you to be a smart buyer to boot?
As for Chinese DACs, you bought a Chinese DAC. You think someone in UK/Europe is going to be able to repair that??? ASR readers would be buying a $200 DAC instead. Even if it broke, it is not a huge deal. Yours? It would be heartbreak. So far record of reliability for Chinese DACs is excellent. You could also buy them through Audiophonics in France and get superb dealer service.
We have US companies like Schiit and JDS Labs which have excellent products at very reasonable costs as well. So if you want local comfort, that is there for us in US. For Europe, there are just not that many manufacturers left there. The few that there are, are not building consistently performant products or I would be recommending more of them.
Erin is not a speaker designer if you mean that in commercial terms. He was a hobbyist mostly building car audio speakers. He bought the same expensive Klippel NFS that I purchased so on that front he is equal to me. He is highly motivated by monetizing his channel and content to help pay for that gear. I am not as there are no ads or sponsored links/sponsorships on ASR or my youtube channel. While Erin’s measurements are trustworthy, the subjective remarks are not in my opinion. But hey, if you go by his measurements, you would be worlds better than what you are doing today.
I get speakers that Erin doesn’t. That doesn’t mean anything by itself. I am actually relieved that Chris did NOT send his speaker to me. I have a conflict of interest as he is friends with my Chief designer at Madrona, making it awkward for me to criticize any issues that may have come up. At end, whether a speaker lands in my hands or Erin, it is both the same thing. We both follow proper science for which you have no value. After all, you let your wife pick the most important part of your system: the speaker.
I have been measuring audio gear for 30 years. Seems to me you all keep telling me how to do my job. I also have extensive professional experience in listening tests, psychoacoustics, sound reproduction, etc. Neither you, nor Michal have any experience whatsoever in these fields. So take your own advice and be respectful if proper experience matters.
Mass consumer will be swayed by marketing and price. They would think anyone who buys a $4,000 DAC is crazy beyond help. Audiophiles who are inquisitive will read forums like this and that of ASR. Those are “enthusiasts” and most definitely research a product before buying. That research and massive body of objective reviews on ASR has led our forum to be neck and neck with top forum in audio world:
Look at how the others like Stereophile are playing in the “noise” relative to our traffic. We are neck and neck with Steve Hoffman forums which is far, far older and more established than ASR. But we will pass them as well given the power of truth telling when it comes to audio science, engineering and performance of products.
As I have said, there will always be some people like you who buy on folklore. “Oh, you have nothing expensive enough for me.” You are a lost cause and there are so few of you that doesn’t matter.
Dr. Toole has this great saying that “there are more useful specs on the side of a tire than there is on speakers!” That is easily extended to everything in audio these days. Well, we are changing that. What the manufacturer misses to put in, my testing shows and then some. That information doesn’t sit well with likes of you and Michal. That’s OK. When all the protests are done, there is nothing of substance in your posts, claims and positions. So continue to tell yourself you are right. It is not material to us.
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This is an interesting point. If i understand correctly you’re saying that you lose fidelity from dsp/eq. So what you’re saying about low sinad makes sense, but if you go for bit perfect then you can get different sounding headphones and speakers with the maximum dynamic range aka no loss of fidelity from the dsp. Am i understanding your point correctly?
You reduce SINAD / DR / SNR as you reduce signal level.
All the anti-SINAD crowd like GoldenSound and Resolve don’t seem to understand that if you start with poor SINAD / DR / SNR before any EQ/DSP (say poor multitone SINAD / SNR), then if you lose 15dB due to EQ + headroom management, well depending how low you started with, you might find yourself enjoying nice hiss from your transducers (maybe you start to hear the nice hum from your linear PSU inside the DAC)
So there are great reasons to start with high SINAD / DR / SNR.
Very practical reasons, not just theoretical.
I like the multitone measurement most. Of course Amir did not invent multitone but he was first to really make it popular… I hadn’t seen it shown in the more popular measurement places before.
For a DAC and even headphone amp, that’s the first measurement I go to (along with power vs distortion of course for an amp)
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Ok, some of the vitriol and conspiracy theory is getting embarrasing.
If we cant stick to the science Iam going to try a different approach. For those of you wanting to try experimenting with harmonic distortion on your high fidelity systems with Roon - here is a solution
I would suggest an Exciter plugin and/or a tube emulator
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I know I keep mentioning it but the issue with the reconstruction filters seems to be a massive elephant in the Roon 
It raises some pretty fundamental questions.
@Mytek_Audio states, Mytek products undergo testing that is “way more involved than anything Amir mentions in A/B/X listening video”. Based on this:
- why was the error not picked up?
- what did the testing reveal about sound of the “different” reconstruction filters?
- what does the fact that the reconstruction filters were in fact identical, say about the testing?
Perhaps the filters were not actually tested. If this was the case how does that square with the “way more involved statement” ?
The only conclusion we seem to be left with is that a really really good, but accidental, double blind test happened. None of the “it’s stressful” arguments apply because no-one actually knew they were being tested.
Presumably people heard differences which everyone must agree, were not actually there.
If this doesn’t convince @Mytek_Audio (and others) that a) his current tests are flawed and b) he must introduce proper controls for listening tests, I’d really like to understand why
And finally, as far as I know there has been no mention that the error will be corrected. Why not?
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THD of equipment is such a pretty useless number if it is lower than the threshold of audibility. So basically well under 1% at low and high frequencies and under 0,1% between 700-1500 Hz is fine, other qualities can be more important.
One could measure distortion just to be sure. What matters more to me is what I get for my money. If I had €5000,- for a DAC I would also audition a product like the Holo, because it has a different approach, but would not be interested in a DAC that is just an off the shelf chip with a linear power supply and pre-amp for €5000,-. ASR can be useful to check these things out. But if there is more going on in the DAC it is fair to pay for the research when you like what that company is doing. Even if these things don’t easily show up in distortion measurements. I understand designers that don’t explain in detail what they did to make sure that the competition is not copying it to sell it for less because they don’t have to do research but just copy stuff. So when you ask them these details, you know that you are not going to get them. Even if a company did abx tests they are not going to give you the results.
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Goes back to what this company has really been selling.
This is baffling to me too, especially after the pre-order fiasco and how that was subsequently mishandled. You would think after something like that a company would be doing all it can to show their customers that that whole situation was nothing more than a blip or rare anomaly. The lack of action here really says a lot.
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It’s fascinating to see how, sometimes, people want to firmly believe that audio equipment is more complicated than it is or has “magical” qualities, “secret ingredients” that allow it to be “better” than what science, physical and electronic laws are screaming loudly.
In reality, the only instrument that is in some ways truly magical, complicated, unreliable, malleable, subject to any type of variable that can totally change the perception and of which we do not yet know everything, is our brain.
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There is even more fatigue in here. Such as meticulously worded temper tantrums. It contributes like nothing yet steals everybody’s time.
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I want to remind everyone to keep on-topic. This means discussing or criticizing ideas, but not people. Instead of attacking the character, motive, or some other attribute of another community member, provide reasoned counter-arguments that improve the conversation.
If you are uncertain your post adds to the conversation, it may be better to not post.
The moderators don’t intend to restrict the discussion, but any further violations of the guidelines will be dealt with accordingly, and reprimands will be imposed.
Now may be a time to review the community guidelines.
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Floyd and Olive’s 1994 paper on listening tests, “Hearing is Believing vs. Believing is Hearing: Blind vs. Sighted Listening Tests, and Other Interesting Things” is worth reading, though he reviews it pretty well in the video I cited above.
Sean Olive’s slides are also available from another chat with Erin. I like the principal component analysis bit, where they find two factors that define a space for listener preference. Following that are the spinorama plots for the various rated speakers, and you can see the development of bad things as they go from top-rated to bottom-rated, in the curves.
I am coming to believe that listening tests, particularly in showrooms, are finally completely unnecessary. Given a thorough set of DAC/amp measurements, and the spinorama measurements for speakers, it seems to me that the data is sufficient to choose an excellent – even the best – system.
As far as amplifier measurements go, it’s well worth reading through @Archimago’s post from 2019: The “Measurement Of Amplifiers Rig” (MOAR): Standard Tests, Loopback results, and the AMOAR Score. While he’s ostensibly reviewing his testing rig, he also explains each of the measurements and why they’re important, and provides links to additional reading material on the subject.
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Detection threshold depends on spectrum of distortion and not just its total. This is why I show the FFT spectrum in every review and don’t just quote this number. Sadly no manufacturer I know shows the spectrum of any distortion so one must measure to have the data to analyze.
Note also that SINAD includes both distortion and noise. Invariably products that have high distortion also have less than ideal noise figures. And noise can easily be audible in sensitive tweeters and when music is not playing (i.e. masking doesn’t apply).
As to 1% THD being enough, that relies on masking and listener abilities/training. There is no straightforward research to tell you what to aim for. Fortunately we can get DACs that have vanishingly low distortion that is below threshold of hearing in the absolute. That is no analysis of masking is needed. Since these DACs have very reasonable cost anyway, there is not reason to buy high distortion DACs.
I don’t know why anyone would be in the market for a $5,000 DAC on basis of performance and hence “R&D.” It is almost a rule that the more you, the worse the distortion and noise. Check out this $6,000 PS Audio DSD DAC for example:
We have distortion spikes that are well above noise floor of CD (96 dB) for heaven’s sake. Its noise floor is above that as well:
This is how its combined noise and distortion compare to a $250 DAC&Amp from Topping:
It gets even worse if you sweep frequencies:
Here are my subjective impressions for what it is worth:
"I started the testing with my audiophile, audio-show, test tracks. You know, the very well recorded track with lucious detail and “black backgrounds.” I immediately noticed lack of detail in PerfectWave DS DAC. It was as if someone just put a barrier between you and the source. Mind you, it was subtle but it was there. I repeated this a few times and while it was not always there with all music, I could spot it on some tracks.
Next I played some of my bass heaving tracks i use for headphone testing. Here, it was easy to notice that bass impact was softened. But also, highs were exaggerated due to higher distortion. Despite loss of high frequency hearing, I found that accentuation unpleasant. With tracks that had lisping issues with female vocals for example, the DS DAC made that a lot worse."
You honestly think this kind of “R&D” needs to be paid for? They reinvented the DAC but got it wrong.
Sorry what? If they have controlled listening tests that shows their DAC to a) sound different and b) to sound better than another DAC, they would not want to disclose that? For what possible reason? There is nothing but goodness in putting such information in their marketing material. There is proof of this in how Harman through its Revel speaker line documents such:
“The performance of Revel Concerta™ on-wall loudspeakers has been extensively evaluated in a variety of on-and near-wall installations through blind listening tests in the Revel Multichannel Listening Lab. … None of the competing systems tested under identical conditions performed as well. Remarkably, Revel engineers could not identify a single competing on-wall system they considered suitable for on-wall use, based on either laboratory measurements or double-blind listening tests.”
Are you saying Harman is giving away some secret here by disclosing that they perform double blind tests like this?
To be clear, I am perfectly good if a DAC cost thousands of dollars if a) it had state of the art measurements and b) had superb build quality and looked great. A couple of years ago I tested a $20,000 DAC that had amazing build but testing showed clear bug in implementation of ESS DAC that even $100 DACs have fixed.
So definitely disagree. Showing measurements used to be the standard in 1970s and 1980s. Not only were companies not afraid of showing such specs, but they would go through extensive documentation in their marketing material to explain how they achieved it. Patents can be used to protect the design.
We need transparency both in performance and specifications. There is no defense for doing otherwise. We can’t being asked to spend literally thousands of dollars on a story and fantastical marketing.
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For an audiophile this sounds absurd. Like knowing everything about a country after reading books about it even though you’ve never been there.
For a technophile it’s nice if life could be that simple. But one day you run into something that wasn’t predicted in the model and you might get confused.
It’s also the technological truth until a new version of the model is released.
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Knowledge is power. Even reading about countries before you ever stepped foot inside.
Take that from someone that has had to work around the world… it is better to know things than not , in many cases.
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The absurdity is that many audiophiles don’t seem to be aware, that state of the art science regarding electrical engineering, acoustics and psychoacoustics has advanced to a point, where any new discoveries will refine, rather than topple over, currently accepted knowledge.
So the best approach today is to get electronics with inaudible imperfections for a budget and splurge on best in class most neutral measuring speakers with most even off axis behavior and step response, then treat the room as sensibly as possible while applying state of the art DSP to optimize room response.
Any tilting of the spectral balance may easily be effected ad libidum via DSP thereafter.
Put some extra cash on the counter for esthetics, if that’s important to you.
This way you could get to the real fun in the hobby as swiftly as possible, namely listening to and discovering new music.
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It would be nice if masking diagrams somehow can be integrated in the numbers. Distortion in loudspeakers is usually much higher, a lot have theoretically audible 3rd harmonic distortion in the mid frequencies. A really very very bad amp could add more distortion in that band, I guess then that amp-distortion might become audible.
No. Your subjective listening (!) confirms that this dac has a (groundplane?) noise issue and emphasizes on the highs. Has a causal relationship between this noise and a ‘clearer’ sound ever been properly investigated? I noticed more HF energy from my DAC when I had a groundloop through the usb power ground.
In the 90-s I worked for a large manufacturer of electro-acoustic products that wrote an AES paper and found a competitor implementing it exactly like it was in the paper in their product. So they decided not to publish any research outcome or technical details anymore. I agree it is frustrating that we now have to read al that marketing nonsense targeted at our emotions in stead of performance but doesn’t microsoft or any company do that too? Unfortunately most audio journalists aren’t of any help either.
A nice site with detailed information about what happened to the audio magazines including an investigation which add followed what positive review is this (in German):
http://www.hifimuseum.de/hifi-magazine.html
There is a lot of information here on classic audio recorders and all that is wrong with it, entertaining and informative.
But I meant someone who believes to know everything about a country by only reading books and not going there. Doing both is best, as you said.
Thanks to Roon we don’t have to spend hours in recordshops not finding what could have been nice new music to us. I do like this discovery of music a lot and don’t want to be disturbed by thinking of the frequency response. That could also happen with the use of only dsp: thinking of changing a filter. I guess most of us found a way to keep the audiophile hobby away from the music-listening from time to time.
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Totally absurd, esp the speakers and to a slightly lesser degree the amp (and I’ll stay far out of the way out of this whole DAC thing). Last time I went to audition speakers, one of them was Larsen 3’s. I was grooving along nicely to some jazz with them, and I forget what else, thinking these speakers just might be the one, and then I put on one of my favorite Cat Power tracks (The Greatest) and it was as if the song had been totally remixed - and not for the better. I quickly passed on those speakers, and I have no idea how they measured and don’t care.
The statement above proves to me (and I’m sure others) that the measurements above all types have no clue what they are listening to. No baseline, just the ol’ ‘sounds good to me’ trope. I’m sure it does, and that’s great, but that has nothing to do with how it measures. In my opinion. And I also don’t think one needs to spend gobs of money to get great hi-fi, but one does need to LISTEN!
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That sums it up quite nicely.
See quote of my post farther up and take some time reading up on available work by scientists in the field.
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@Jut Thanks for sharing that link. Hilarious!
Luckily, this is all in the hobby area and not in politics or business. And so there are no dead people in the verbal virtual Internet wars and global (word) battles in the various forums, only slightly mentally injured people and of course masses of “winners”.
hifimuseum.de - Sie sind im Bereich : Hifi Psyche. But there are more categorizations worth defining including some folks here! And for some this is a business.
I know it’s difficult to respond to all the points being made and the 4 hour wait makes it even harder. If only humans could behave well.
One item that has been mentioned at least at a couple of times by @steven44 that @Amir_Majidimehr sells Revel speakers. Can this claim of conflict of interest be cleared up?