I couldn’t do that
1/ my dealer taps his feet more vigorously as the price goes up
2/ my room at home never matches a dealers listening space.
2 Likes
I imagine majority of any hifi customers just audition gear and make their decision based on that.
Amazing that it took 158 posts for someone to figure this one out. 
I was not refering that, only that dealer must be happy to be able to sell lot of stuff…maybe canned low otzone air to your listening room?
Fair enough. As I mentioned, I have no objection to people spending their money as they see fit, and if it makes you happy … who am I to object 
3 Likes
Amir has one piece of analytical gear missing from his setup: the one between his ears.
He uses his considerable knowledge and talent making very nice measurements that he consistently misinterprets because–in the end–he’s dealing with an infinity of phenomena per second that are not measurable by any computer short of the human auditory system.
7 Likes
Which are? BTW, phenomena are observable facts, so they are by definition measurable!
The human ear is a super measurement device better than anything else…
… oh dear, science and laws of physics behold, back to the dark ages, let us burn a wich.
Oh lordy, to wade in here again…
IMO I think what Emory might mean is that Amir is cycling though so much gear, and possibly more often than not NOT wanting to hear a change (in order to prove his measurements are the final word, esp with companies he seems to have some sort of beef with) that it might be difficult for him to get an (unbiased) baseline to discern subtle, additive changes such as one gets with switches, cables, power, etc when added to a long time familiar sounding device.
With photo students or aspiring amateurs the first piece of advice I give is to stick to one camera and prime lens for an extended period of time (meaning years), so that you know it like the ‘back your hand.’ If one is switching out gear all the time, it can become confusing as to what’s different or better, if at all.
Thankfully, many mfg and dealers now have a return window, so best to try things oneself vs trusting Amir, or me, or any other opinion. Because at the end of the day, even with all of his charts etc, it’s really Amir’s opinion that his ‘science’ is as good as it’s going to get and telling us everything we need to know. I just don’t buy that. Everyone should decide for themselves.
6 Likes
I’m really not sure what you’re suggesting here. Are you saying that maybe if you stack up a whole bunch of stuff that measures as transparent (i.e. having no discernible effect) then somehow all those zero effects will add up to something audible? The whole is greater than the sum of the parts? I’d be grateful if you could clarify.
I’m not sure that this is an especially useful way to teach photography - most competent students are quite capable of knowing the relative merits of different bits of kit, and when to use them - but, leaving that aside, how is this relevant to our current discussion? Are you suggesting that it would take years to appreciate a new piece of network equipment?
No, it’s not. It’s not Amir’s opinion that the EtherREGEN has no effect on sound quality, nor that one DAC is more transparent than another. The measurements he provides are objective. That one DAC is more transparent than another is not a measure of his opinion, it’s an analysis of the data. You can deny science all you like, and you can claim that you value your opinion more than the facts, but that doesn’t change those facts.
Ultimately, yes, everyone should decide for themselves. But surely it’s better to make informed choices, backed by expert knowledge, rather than simply accepting the hyperbolic claims from the marketing departments of companies such as UpTone Audio.
By the way, I’m not sure if you saw the link @killdozer posted recently. It seems quite apt to repeat it here No, you’re not entitled to your opinion - well worth a read.
3 Likes
‘Infinity’ is probably a bit of an exaggeration, by several orders of magnitude but, leaving that aside, which phenomena are you referring to?
[quote=“David_Nightingale, post:264, topic:133035, full:true”]
I’m not sure that this is an especially useful way to teach photography - most competent students are quite capable of knowing the relative merits of different bits of kit, and when to use them - but, leaving that aside, how is this relevant to our current discussion? Are you suggesting that it would take years to appreciate a new piece of network equipment?[/quote]
The analogy I was trying to make was about having a baseline. Anyway, I learned this way of teaching from Mary Ellen Mark, who was no slouch when it came to photography. It teaches you to ‘look’ with your brain and your feet, not your gear, and create a distinct, consistent, and repeatable look. I know what I’m talking about. I’ll leave it at that.
Fair enough. So I suppose you’re saying that Amir’s measurements are (possibly) invalid because he’s not using his ears to detect any movement/shift from a well established baseline. Is that correct?
Correct. I’m not saying the measurements are invalid per se, but he may not be measuring the right thing, or taking into account system synergy. And hey, I’m not an etherRegen owner I do have an Uptone power supply) but I am a Sonore user and fan, and he got the measurements totally wrong when the microRendu came out and discredited a very good company and forward thinking product with some sort of weird agenda. To Sonore’s credit, they never comment on the sound quality of their own gear - just put it out there and leave it up to reviewer’s and customers.
As far as the question you had before about additive - I think many get confused by the hyperbole that some unfortunately use, like a ‘huge’ upgrade, when it’s perhaps just a slight tightening of the sound. IME it’s a matter of a lot of small percentages adding up - if you have a dozen or so tweak points, and perhaps each of those is worth 2% of the overall sound, it still adds up to a quarter of the sound quality when you put them altogether, but hard to discern in short A/B listening tests. Now whether the outlay to get there is worth it to you is another question. I just think it’s unfortunate that anybody in this hobby takes another’s as the word of god, whether it be Amir’s, John Swenson’s (Uptone designer), Darko’s, Stereophile, or that Paul dude from PS Audio (you get the idea). One must take into consideration system synergy as a whole.
1 Like
What should he be measuring then? Clearly lots of things are irrelevant - albedo, weight, hue - so what would be the relevant things to measure? My problem here is that I have a limited understanding as to what should be measured as I’m not an electronics specialist. Amir, on the other hand, is well qualified and has stated that he’s measured the things that can have an impact on SQ. I’ve also read through UpTone’s marketing and didn’t notice them talking about any alternative measurements that would be more valid. In short, either the measurements are invalid, or not.
Synergy is one of my favourite concepts, but I’m struggling to see its relevance in the context of digital networks. If an EtherRegen has no measurable effect on its on, by what physics defying logic could it have a measurable effect when connected to something else? Either it has some effect on the signal passing through it, or it doesn’t.
Absolutely. For example, toeing in your speakers by an extra half a degree, adding some room dampening, upgrading your power amp, and so on. On their own the gains might be marginal, but taken as a whole you can notice a big improvement. That said, the chances of ’ a dozen or so tweaks’ upstream of your DAC making a 25% improvement in SQ to an already transparent system is probably somewhere around zero.
In the case of the last three, you either take their word, or not, as they offer nothing by way of supporting evidence. Amir, on the other hand, offers data rather than opinions. Facts rather than feelings. Science rather than supposition. That works for me.
2 Likes
From John Swenson -
“There are two types of sound-degrading influences the EtherREGEN is designed to radically decrease: Leakage—both high-impedance and low-impedance—and clock phase-noise. The clock phase-noise travels on the Ethernet signal itself and on power- and ground-planes. [Every signal edge coming out of any digital device carries the jitter/phase-noise of the clock used to “clock out” that edge; this shows up on the ground-plane and affects the threshold of chips’ clock inputs. This is an oversimplification of a complex subject; here is the link to our ‘white paper’ about the technical mechanisms (to be followed with some measurement proof of the effects).”
To my knowledge, he is yet to come up with some measurement proof of the effects…
3 Likes
“Much of perceived digital audio performance is dependent upon the quality of the clock signal entering the DAC chip (or discrete DAC ladders) and the presence of jitter. Jitter is any variation in timing of the clock from a mathematically perfect timing reference. Jitter causes distortions in the audio signal coming out of the DAC.”
— John R. Swenson (https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0660/6121/files/UpTone-J.Swenson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386)
"Computer, networking and streaming architecture instructs us that an external switch cannot have any effects on an Audio DAC. But it is always good to put some hard data behind this. And that is what the measurements show. That no matter how deep we dig down in the waveforms coming out of the DAC, no difference exists between a cheap, generic switch and UpTone EtherRegen. Even when going down to incredible -160 dB which is equivalent to a 27 bit audio word (3 bit more than any 24 bit content), there is still no difference.
Measurements conclusively demonstrate that EtherRegen did not change jitter, noise or distortion of the DAC. It further had no impact on its clock speed, or output voltage."
— Amir Majidimehr (UpTone Audio EtherREGEN Switch Review | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum)
I’ll get back to listening to some appropriate music …
6 Likes
Fair enough. I’m really over this topic as it is and we can all just agree to disagree, and hear or not hear what’s in front of us. But it would be nice if the ASR Amir crowd took the snarky insults down a notch and this campaign of trying to ‘save’ people from their purchases. What may be ‘snake oil’ to you might be something agreeable to somebody else. Thank god we all have the right to make our own decisions as to what we believe in, and how we spend our money. Personally, I could care less about cars, but I don’t go around telling expensive car owners that if they measured from point A to B, a cheap used car would get them there just as well and in the same time (traffic is traffic) and that they’ve been had.
My question to you would be, though, aren’t you even the least bit curious to try some of the network and power tweaks with your own ears, at the very least to confirm your seemingly total belief in Amir and his measurements? One of the things I’ve enjoyed about this hobby is that aspect of discovery, whether it’s big, small, or not at all (or even for the worse). You might be surprised…
1 Like
Ah, I see you just don’t want to give it a rest. Anyway, thanks for all the help with the themes, but I’m done with the ASR discussion.
I have absolutely no objection to people convincing themselves that this sort of gear has value and, as I’ve said before, I genuinely believe that people do hear a difference.
No, not really, because even if I did hear a difference the only rational explanation would be one that placed the cause of that difference between my ears, not between the source and the DAC. I’d hear a difference, because I was looking for one, not because of any objective change to the system. All our senses are fickle, prone to bias, and easily confused. Why add to that confusion when all the relevant science clearly stacks up on one side of the debate?
I’ll be honest, I don’t expect I’ll convince anyone who’s bought an EtherRegen (or other bit of network ‘voodoo’) to change their mind, and I’m fairly sure my opinions on this topic won’t change, but I do find the discussions rewarding.
4 Likes