Ok, makes sense - I have only been using Roon Core as a playback source since I moved to ROCK on a NUC, added a Sonore UPnP Bridge and converted an RPi to an Endpoint.
Before I was using Roon for Library Management on a Laptop, which is now a Roon Remote.
So, just the Force Rescan setting and sorting out the 24/192 playback to go.
Hi @simon_pepper ---- Thank you for the feedback here and my apologies for the slow response.
To help me better evaluate/understand what may be happening here in regard to the following behaviors:
Any update on a manual rescan setting. Since moving to ROCK I have lost the auto detection of file changes, so need a ‘Rescan every x minutes’.
Then since the latest build, playback on 24/192 through the Sonore UPnP Bridge drops out - is the protocol changes taking additional bandwidth?
May I very kindly ask you to please provide the following information:
A brief but accurate description of your current setup as seen here.
Please outline your network configuration/topology, being sure to provide insight into any networking hardware you may be implementing (make/model & location in the chain communication). I want to have a clear understanding of how your device are communicating and what tools are being used to make those connections possible.
Roon Core (Build 234) is running on ROCK 1.0 Build 76 on a 4th Gen NUC (DC3217IYE which runs an i3-3217U Processor (3M Cache, 1.80 GHz), which I believe is the Ivy Bridge family. It has 8GB of RAM and a Crucial mSATA SSD which has the same specifications when in mSATA, M2 & 2.5 inch format.
Music is stored on a ReadyNAS Ultra 2+/Pro 2, which is a dual Intel Atom device, with 2GB RAM, and WD Red 8TB disks in RAID1. Ethernet is bonded onto a Netgear GS108ev2 Gigabit switch. Into the NUC is also connected.
Endpoint 1 - Sonore UPnP Bridge running on a Sonicorbiter SE product, running 2.3, which presents itself to Roon as Squeezelite device - this feeds a Naim NDS with 555DR PS as UPnP Render. Normally driven by Asset UPnP server running on a headless RPi2. Connection between NDS, Sonicorbiter (and RPi2) is a Cisco Gigabit switch.
Endpoint 2 - RaspberryPi Model B - the original ARMv6 board, running Squeezelite-arm, just as a basic ‘Roon Speakers’ device, with output using the on-board ALSA driven headphone jack into AUX input of B&O TV for sound only.
Endpoint 3 - HP Elitebook 2540p laptop with IDT HD playback (personal laptop, docked in Study with powered speakers, running Roon Remote for Win7
Endpoint 4 - Dell XPS 13 laptop running Win 10 and Realtek Audio (work laptop used when I have to!)
Endpoint 1 is connected to ROCK & NAS over a Powerline Ethernet - Devolo 1200+ (upgraded from Duo 500), so Gigabit connection and reported 500Mbits/s connection.
Endpoint 2 is connected to the Powerline by Duo 500, with 1200+ at the far end, 100BaseT ethernet connection on Devolo and RPi with reported connection speed of 150Mbits/s.
Endpoint 3 is WiFi, 802.11n over 2.4Ghz or 5GHz connection - shows as 300Mbits/s
Endpoint 4 is WiFI, 802.11ac over 2.4GHz and 5GHz, upto 1.75Gbits/s
So 2 problems:
Roon Core does not detect changes in files on ReadyNAS NAS. So to pick up changes/additions/deletions needs to be made to ‘Force Rescan’, from the Settings -> Storage configuration. If not, it does not pickup any changes at all, even after the default 4 hours.
When Roon was running on the Latptop, under Win7, no problem changes detected on NAS.
Had the same problem with Asset on the RPi to NAS.
Can there be a Manual Rescan configuration setting - say 30 minutes or 60 minutes, so the Core runs through a rescan.
The Sonore UPnP Bridge drops during playback of 24/196 files or DSD64 converted to PCM in 24/176.4
When it does drop out, it clears the Playback Queue. This only started after the upgrade to the latest Roon build (234), under 223 played fine.
When I set the max resolution on the UPnP Bridge to 96KHz, Roon downconverts at 12x and they play fine - so there is a bandwidth/network protocol issue. I suspected the Duo 500 devices, being only 100Base-T devices, so upgraded to the 1200+ ones, with Gigabet connection - but no improvement.
I can also use the SDPIF optical output from the Sonicorbiter device, but the optical input on the NDS is limited to 24/96, so playback of 24/192 files needs down conversion. There is no electrical SDPIF output, just async USB and there is no USB input to the NDS DAC, as it is a Network Streamer.
Can’t seem to get the log files from the Sonicorbiter and the log on ROCK don’t seem to be live, always behind.
Windows has always been a bit better about picking up real-time changes on a NAS than OSX and Linux, so you’re probably feeling that OS change.
That said, we generally do pretty well with QNAP and Synology devices, and we have seen poorer performance with other brands. I don’t have a good feel for the ReadyNAS stuff, since it doesn’t come up that often, but I don’t think you want Roon rescanning your NAS every 30 mins – that’s a lot of churning happening in the background on a near-constant basis.
If the ReadyNAS has some SMB options, feel free to let us know what they look like and we may be able to advise on this a bit more.
It’s also not clear to me whether you’re doing anything “exotic” in regards to how the NAS is connected to the network, but if you’re doing Jumbo Frames, link aggregation, etc, it’s worth simplifying things to determine whether things perform better.
I think the first step here is going to be simplifying the network and seeing if that has any effect.
Build 234 did have significant changes in how RAAT works, but the changes have been overwhelmingly stable, and I haven’t heard of any issues related to the Sonore device – maybe @Jesus_Rodriguez has heard reports I’m not aware of?
In general, the changes in 234 should make things more robust and stable, so I’d be surprised if this wasn’t related to something environmental. Like all networking issues, there’s probably some testing that needs to be done here, and then we can look into this further.
Let us know how it’s going @simon_pepper, and we’ll make sure we get this stable for you. Thanks!
My use of ReadyNAS is pretty standard stuff - the Ultra units have 2 Gigabit ports are bonded together under a single IP address, and provide a load balanced/fault tolerant connection.
I do have Jumbo Frames enabled, but that is to enable efficient backups between ReadyNAS units - I have 2 others, a standard Ultra 2 and an old Duo, with 2x6TB and 2x2TB disks, in RAID1 also.
Presumably, Roon Core uses standard CIFS connections. I moved the RPi2’s mount to NFS as there is some performance advantage with NFS3 for Unix-Unix system.
But the performance or lack of functionality of the auto-detect was the same.
The ‘Force Rescan’ only takes under a minute, my library is around 75k tracks, so maybe once a hour. This is the setting I have Asset on, with a ‘Rescan Folder Detect Changes’ every 60 mins.
The dropouts on 24/192 is a bit frustrating, and at present I am back to the UPnP server mode of playback, as there is a drop in SQ over the Sonore UPnP Bridge, it sounds flat and disengaged over the Asset/RPi UPnP server - which is a shame, asI was looking forward to using Roon as the playback interface.
I would get one Small Green Computer sonicTranporter and ditch all that extra gear. The sonicTranporter will be your Roon core, local output, NAS with local storage, Sonore UPnP Bridge, and DLNA server as needed all in one. That cuts the clutter significantly and the chances of something going wrong. I would then connect it directly to the router via ethernet. As for Powerline gizmos…I don’t test with them so no clue if they work for this application or not. As for the sound of the Sonore UPnP Bridge…others have reported that it sounds excellent and that is my experience as well. These are bit perfect streams and the sound should be identical since your device is rendering things in both cases.
Hi, My Music Library is nearly 8TB in size, I also want to ensure that there is automated backups between devices, in the event of disk failure. At present, my main NAS with 8TB disks running RAID1, backups to other NAS devices with 6TB and 2TB volumes - this is nothing to do with the playback route - this is just data maintenance.
So I don’t want any noisy spinning USB disk enclosures within the listening environment, so these need to be ‘on network’, and the music streamed from source to playback device.
Yes, it is not ideal that this connection has to be undertaken using the Powerline devices, but there is no way of direct physical wiring, as the apartment is in a converted 18th Century former convent building, i.e. a solid stone building, with high ceilings.
So I have what I have - the Roon Core is running perfectly on Roon, located on the same switch network as the NAS storage. The UPnP Bridge, is running alongside, on the same sub-network, a UPnP Server, serving the same Network Player from the same source files. The UPnP server route sounds fantastic, Roon Core through the UPnP Bridge sounds flat and lifeless.
Furthermore, why does a 24/192 play fine through a RPi running squeeze-lite, on the same network, but not the UPnP Bridge, which also presents to Roon as Squeezelite device and uses the same protocol?
Is the processing power on the Cubox-i device used for a Sonicorbiter SE less than a RaspberryPi Model B (the original single core device) with 1GB RAM?
I didn’t suggest USB drives…Andrew makes sonicTransporters with internal drives. I have installed plenty of systems and there are ways to route wires exposed yet discrete to the eye. Anyway, until you are willing to do what Mike suggested and find the bottle neck there not much more we can do to solve your issue. The Cubox used as the base for the Sonirorbiter is an i2 and it has plenty of power and ram do what it’s doing. In fact, a lot of people are using them for this very application and the feedback has been very positive.
Seriously there is no possible way of getting a wired connection between where my NAS drives, internet connection & Wireless AP are located, and my living room. Walls are solid stone, thick, high ceilings and no accessible loft space, and no way round to perimeter of the rooms. Can’t go outside and back in, as building is historically listed (Grade 1).
The point is it was all working fine, with Roon at the previous release - the dropouts occur with the UPnP Bridge after the upgrade to the latest Roon version.
Plus why does it play perfectly to another Squeezelite instance, on a lesser capable piece of hardware, on a lesser bandwidth connection. So there is something strange going on - whether it is network, protocols, hardware or software.
Ok, so I was doing some maintenance in my ‘network rack’ was briefly moved my main NAS into the living room, attached it onto the same switch as the Naim NDS and Sonicorbiter. I also moved the NUC running ROCK - so the NAS, NUC, Sonicorbiter and Naim NDS Network player are all connected to a local switch, which is a simple unmanaged CISCO 5 port unit.
And, the playback drops out of 24/192 files within a few seconds of the track beginning.
It also erases all other items in the playback queue, it doesn’t just give up on one track as if it corrupt or inaccessible, playback ceases and any queue is empty.
This is the simplest network configuration I can get - all of the components are on the same 5-port switch - yet playback of 24/192 is not possible.
So what I do I need to do, now?
I will be returning the NAS and NUC units to their ‘remote’ location, connected by the PoE devices, since we have eliminated that part of the network.