Discography Feedback: "More From"

[mike (Mike Fass)]

Our most recent release includes a new “More from” section at the bottom of the Artist Discography view for some artists.

Artist Discography was created to give users a powerful, comprehensive view of everything available from a given artist, including their main releases, appearances, production work, “Composed by” performances, and so on. This view allows you to browse the artist’s most popular releases inside and outside of your library, with powerful Focus functionality that makes it easy to dig deep into an artist and discover who they performed with, who wrote and produced the music, and what genres and labels were most prominent in their career.

We’ve heard a lot of feedback (here and elsewhere) about how Discography can feel cluttered by “unofficial” releases for some artists, particularly those whose early, or even prime, recording years are out of copyright. This is particularly true for users with European streaming accounts. But we also know how important it is that Roon provides access to everything available from a given artist, which is why we’ve created a new home for this type of content.

The “More from” section is just the start of an initiative to clean up Discography, by moving releases there out of “Main albums” that could never really be considered part of artists’ canonical discographies. This includes – in some cases excessive numbers of – opportunistic catalog mining releases and out-of-copyright (or even dubious copyright) reissues, duplicates, and compilations.

We have other improvements planned for Discography, but for now we’re interested to know whether the contents of these sections – both “Main albums” and “More from” – look right. We won’t be able to respond to (or address) every example, but please let us know if you see something that appears to be in the wrong section, as this will help us continue to improve Discography over the coming months and years.

Thanks all!

[woodford]

where should I be seeing “more from…”

quick check of both Crosby, Stills, & Nash, and CSNY discographies, shows several dubious releases.:

the UN General Assembly recording is a boot.

the Crosby disc here is a boot:

Winterland Arena is a boot too:

[RBM (René)]

@mike

The “More from” section is just the start of an initiative to clean up Discography, by moving releases there out of “Main albums” that could never really be considered part of artists’ canonical discographies. This includes – in some cases excessive numbers of – opportunistic catalog mining releases and out-of-copyright (or even dubious copyright) reissues, duplicates, and compilations.

This is major: namely Qobuz is notoriously bad with this, especially with older artists and large discographies (think Miles Davis or Bob Dylan). First looks say these are cleaned up nicely.

[woodford]

I don’t see a “more from” section for Miles, nor for Bob, and the first row of Dylan albums displays an obvious boot.

[woodford]

so Roon just updated to build 1292, and now I’m seeing “More from”, as well as a section for “bootlegs” for Dylan.

all of the above examples have been fixed, except for the David Crosby example under Appearances for CSNY.

[Jim_F (Minimalist)]

We just arrived at the MIL’s house for her 100th birthday Monday. Updated Dell XPS 15 laptop core locally and Nucleus and late 2014 Mac Mini remotely using Splashtop as well as iPhone XPS 15, iPad Mini 6, and iPad 7th Gen. No problems and “More From” showing up at the end of the Discography.

Thanks Roon. You guys and gals rock.

[mike (Mike Fass)]

@RBM

This is major

Yup, we’re really excited to begin shipping these improvements and getting feedback, although I’m sure there will be issues that are tricky to address in the near-term.

Huge amount of work already done on this project by @joel and @jamie and we’ll continue working to improve the experience – examples like those provided by @woodford are super helpful so keep them coming, folks.

Thanks all!

[woodford]

@mike

opportunistic catalog mining releases and out-of-copyright (or even dubious copyright) reissues,

the following examples all fall under this category, which is a particular problem with older operatic recordings.

these are all from the Discography for Leonard Warren, an American baritone who died in 1960 (famously, on stage at the Met during a performance of La Forza del Destino).

All of the examples below were originally released on RCA, and some subsequently on BMG in other territories.

The first row is all legit, but the Tosca in the second row is from an “opportunistic label”, and was originally on RCA:

in the above example we see legitimate releases of Aida and Pagliacci, but below are “opportunistic” examples of the exact same recordings:

The Aida highlights disc is legit, but the Macbeth recording is not. this is a famous recording, perhaps the best Macbeth on disc/LP, and originally released on RCA:

Lastly, the Gioconda and Forza in the example below, both of which were RCA recordings. this label is a particular offender.

…and don’t get me started on the absurdity of some of these complete recordings being listed under “Main Albums”, some “with Jussi Bjorling” and some under “Appearances.”

They’re all Main Cannon Leonard Warren.

[Rainer_Muller (Rainer)]

Thank you so much for beginning to clean this up. The junk releases were the reason why I finally quit Qobuz and switched to Tidal (where the problem is not so severe). Good to see that this problem is taken care of. For me the most important improvement to Roon in a long time.

[Jazzfan_NJ (Listening to JAZZ since 1972!)]

@Rainer_Muller

Thank you so much for beginning to clean this up.

“beginning” is the key word here. I checked a few artists in my library (Bob Dyan, The Grateful Dead, Miles Davis) that have lots of bootlegs and for each of these artists 99% of these live bootlegs still show up under the “main albums” section of the discography. So for now I’m considering this new feature more of a work in progress rather than a finished product. Nevertheless this a big step in the right direction and I’m hopeful for good things to come in the near future.

A question: what is the impact of “identified”, as opposed to “unidentified”, recordings on where the recording is placed in the new discography section? I ask because, in the case of the three artists listed above, most of their bootleg recordings are unidentified by Roon.

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

@Jazzfan_NJ

Bob Dyan, The Grateful Dead, Miles Davis) that have lots of bootlegs and for each of these artists 99% of these live bootlegs still show up under the “main albums” section of the discography.

Do you have examples for Dylan? Because I checked Dylan as well and it seems much better now, but I am not an expert on Dylan. There are now 82 in Main (Qobuz & Tidal) and to me nearly all look legit (with a few exceptions), while More has 230

[mike (Mike Fass)]

@Jazzfan_NJ

I checked a few artists in my library (Bob Dyan, The Grateful Dead, Miles Davis) that have lots of bootlegs and for each of these artists 99% of these live bootlegs still show up under the “main albums” section of the discography.

Yep, as @Suedkiez said – some examples would be great.

@Jazzfan_NJ

what is the impact of “identified”, as opposed to “unidentified”, recordings on where the recording is placed in the new discography section?

Only streaming content from outside your library will end up in the More From section.

Identified or not, once it’s in your library we will consider it one of the artist’s main releases.

[Jazzfan_NJ (Listening to JAZZ since 1972!)]

@mike

Only streaming content from outside your library will end up in the More From section.

Identified or not, once it’s in your library we will consider it one of the artist’s main releases.

Well that pretty much answers the question since in the case of the three artists I mentioned, all of the various bootlegs are indeed in my local library. I really don’t consider these (mostly live) bootlegs being part of the “Main Releases” as a problem, as they usually show up in the correct chronological order.

What is more of a problem is that so many of these bootlegs are unidentified, especially in the case of the Grateful Dead, where many, if not all, of these live recordings are well cataloged in places like Deadbase. But that’s a subject for a different thread.

[tripleCrotchet (Tony)]

A lot of great music from the Qobuz BnF (National Library of France) collection is now in “More From”. A lot of historical recordings for sure but I wouldn’t put it in the same category as the other questionable stuff in “More From”.

BnF Collection Hi-Res discography on Qobuz

[Tim_Woodward]

That’s a difficult one, yes it is an archive of recordings going way back, some no longer available anywhere else, but I was given to understand they are mostly vinyl rips and so aren’t always the best quality and certainly aren’t the original label (or derivatives of that original label)?

Still, if Roon ever get their streaming service label search going then we could find BNF versions very easily… Search by record label outside library

They never seem to quite get what we want do they, Roon or Qobuz. I mean Qobuz has an excellent label search feature (only on Mac though it seems, not on iOS), but once you have a lovely list of all the albums from that label there is no search or filter you can apply to find the album or artist you are looking for? Oh well!

[tripleCrotchet (Tony)]

Yes, the quality can be a bit hit and miss but I often find the BnF version is much better than the questionable rips that roon is trying to move to “More From”. The quality can also be very good as far as historical recordings go.

It is also not consistent. BnF is also in many “With Artist” as well as “More From” sections. For example, do a search on Jascha Horenstein.

I am not at all sure what exactly the categorization criteria are for historical recordings. Mainstream Labels like Naxos Historical, Warner Classics and Decca that issue large numbers of poor quality recordings by many “audiophile” standards are not in “More From” (correctly in my view). Try Hebzibah Menuhin, for example. More specialist labels like Myto and Pristine Audio also (again, correctly in my view). Try Clemens Krauss. I am just not sure what exactly the cut off point exactly is?

Where there are very deep catalogues with historically famous artists it just seems very uncertain how far down you should scroll where there are now so many sections or if it is easier to do a search outside roon.

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

Main albums are probably another thing that is necessarily more poorly defined for artists living before recorded music was invented, mostly classical of course.

For artists from the 20th century, or at least the second half, there is a reasonable definition of their main albums, being those that they themselves released.

But Mozart never released an album, so which recordings of his works should be considered “main” is necessarily more fuzzy. And arguably stuff from BnF may be more canonical than random crappy releases that are only there to make a penny.

It probably requires more human editorial work to get right

[tripleCrotchet (Tony)]

@Suedkiez

For artists from the 20th century, or at least the second half, there is a reasonable definition of their main albums, being those that they themselves released.

There are exceptions of course but I usually find that recordings of classical works, conducted or played by the living composer are not their best. They are often academic curiosities that are precisely what I would put in “More From”. But as I say I don’t really understand what the criteria is. It sems clearer with opportunistic out of copyright publishers cluttering catalogues with hundreds of dubious Dylan and Coltrane recordings. But what historical Classical recordings are to be considered main is not so clear cut and as usual with Classical the criteria need to be different.

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

@tripleCrotchet

There are exceptions of course but I usually find that recordings of classical works, conducted or played by the living composer are not their best. They are often academic curiosities that are precisely what I would put in “More From”.

Maybe, but the difference is that they are still under copyright and the artist or the label they signed with have a say on what gets released officially, whether performed by the compost or by someone else.

Surely those have to be considered either main or they need a separate, additional category. I don’t think “Main” should be taken as a quality endorsement but purely based on the official status. (Certain Dylan albums that the man himself released are rightly in Main despite not every one being among his best work)

Otherwise, we agree on the complexities here

[Tim_Woodward]

I’ve been looking on Presto Music the main website, and it seems if you belong to their streaming service certain versions that they sell for download are not available for streaming (you can tell because they didn’t have a streaming link) usually the dodgy remasters. But some labels are available, like Craft and Jazz Classics… I agree it is complex!