Discuss recent MQA developments here

[jamie]

Hey Community folks, here’s a place for you to discuss recent MQA news and developments.

MQA is going into administration

MQA's even higher-quality music streaming tech sounds amazing… if anyone...

Before we get underway, there are a few guidelines and things I want to share. Some of you have cried foul for censorship with Moderators because we consolidated previous posts about this topic into a closed thread. To be clear, I want to take ownership of that. I poorly articulated guidelines to the moderators regarding MQA discussion. I personally apologize for those actions.

We don’t want to censor open discussion of these developments.

We do want you to be respectful toward each other while doing so.

In the past, MQA conversations have quickly devolved into uncivil/toxic behavior, and members have attacked each other for their stand on the MQA format. That behavior quickly erodes the type of environment we’re trying to foster on our forum. Grudges are formed, and ill feelings carry over into other threads, PMs, etc. We don’t want a replay of that. If you have questions about what’s allowed, please review our Community Guidelines before posting in this thread.

We respect your desire to discuss this topic. You’ve seen the MQA developments and have heard interesting news from TIDAL.

AMA w/ Jesse @ TIDAL, CEO says hi-res FLAC on HiFi Plus is coming, open API, etc

https://www.reddit.com/r/TIdaL/comments/12hr68f/ama_w_jesse_tidal/ As a longtime Roon/TIDAL subscriber, this is the biggest news since, well since I can’t remember when. Hopefully we can all be respectful of the impact this will no doubt have on the many folks who invested time, energy and resources into supporting MQA. This will undoubtedly have a major impact on the livelihoods of many who saw MQA as the future of hi-res streaming. So, please let’s be respectful AND rejoice for open-standards…

We understand that you have opinions and want to share them. Your positive or negative opinions on MQA are allowed - so long as they are in keeping with forum rules.

Roon doesn’t have any behind-the-scenes information on MQA’s current status, nor do we have an official Roon position to share. Please note that we don’t want MQA debate to pour over into every corner of the Community. Off-topic MQA posts in other threads contravene the shared guidelines and will be moderated accordingly.

So, let’s relegate our discussion of MQA developments to this thread and express opinions/thoughts as just that - opinions and thoughts, not facts. Some possible talking points could be:

• Your feelings on MQA from personal experience.

• Your feelings on proprietary formats moving forward.

• Your feelings on having purchased equipment that supports proprietary formats.

• Your thoughts about how MQA support might look moving forward.

Most importantly, let’s be respectful of each other and not make personal attacks. That also applies to the people who created MQA. It’s always risky to claim to know other people’s intentions and motivations. Let’s not go there.

Posts that do/will/can not abide by these requirements will be moderated. Thank you for your attention and understanding.

[Mikael_Ollars]

I am curious whether Roon will drop the ability to decode any local MQA files. (I have a few local, purchased from various DL-stores)
Or does the license allow Roon to maintain the compatibility?

[Menzies]

@Mikael_Ollars

I have a few local, purchased from various DL-stores

All hypothetical as no one knows what is to become of MQA. Their current status doesn’t mean anything as such as they are still in business.

It’s unlikely Roon will comment on this based on how sensitive subjects around MQA become.

My thoughts only.

Based on those who’ve purchased MQA music, the need for MQA support continues no matter what happens.

As it is a current part of Roon, then it would remain. Just maybe

[Menzies]

@jamie

Your thoughts about how MQA support might look moving forward.

Hi @jamie

I think many of us understood the stance taken at the time.

I think another thread asked about ongoing support of MQA content personally owned on a SSD for example. Can you say, or is it too early to say if Roon would be able to support MQA should there not be a MQA Company?

@jamie

nor do we have an official Roon position to share.

Missed this.

Thank you for opening the doors for discussion.

Cheers

Lewis

[Mikael_Ollars]

@Menzies

Thank you for opening the doors for discussion.

Agreed!

And, i for one would like to keep the possibility to expand the first part of my local MQA-files, if possible. There were a few releases from the early days that were “white glove treated” that i like, and i prefer over any plain vanilla FLAC’s in my posession.

For what it’s worth, i hope that manufacturers and the business learns from this, and perhaps stay away from non-open source codecs and formats going forward…

[jamie]

Hey @Menzies,

Like everyone else, we’re onlookers and don’t know how things will shake out with MQA. Once we have a better idea of where things stand, we’ll be able to comment on MQA support within Roon. But this is fresh news, and we don’t know what’s ultimately going to happen.

[crowlem]

@Mikael_Ollars

i hope that manufacturers and the business learns from this, and perhaps stay away from non-open source codecs and formats going forward…

This seems like the logical takeaway for me but looking at the latest in music, all of the spatial formats are proprietary.

Atmos apparently surprised even Apple in terms of “engagement” from their subscribers so to me, it seems like we are still moving towards a more closed system of playback.

I actually think spatial audio is seriously cool (when done properly) but I really don’t like the hoops you have to jump through.

With MQA you needed both the decoder and renderer, Atmos is the same in HiFi (you still need a receiver, typically, to playback Atmos).

Sony’s 360 audio is so proprietary it doesn’t even work in most places. You can only listen to it on Tidal, on headphones. Maybe that’s more of a technical hurdle (I’m assuming the effect doesn’t work so well on a 2 channel hifi setup) but it’s such a pain.

I saw people all the time on Reddit asking questions on how to playback MQA, the same is true of Atmos and it is really annoying. Closed formats lead to pages full of how to guides, compatible devices etc.

Dolby Atmos

[woodford]

I have not seen any of the bad faith arguments leveled against Atmos however. the proprietary nature is no different from MQA.

[danny (Danny Dulai)]

@woodford

I have not seen any of the bad faith arguments leveled against Atmos however. the proprietary nature is no different from MQA.

Here you go…

I said this back in Feb 2018 about Dolby:

Is Roon supporting MQA? What are the pros and cons of MQA?

@crenca, you make some really good points and I like where you took the thought exercise. The long-term effects of MQA success and what I call the “Dolby Innovation Paradox” must be considered here. There will be a serious problem if MQA becomes the Dolby of music audio, and innovation is stuck in the hands of a commercial entity that has no incentive to innovate. Mike Moffat & Jason Stoddard of Schiit state idea this well at about 9:49 into this video interview by John Darko. Let’s not get st…

…and I’m rearticulating what Jason Stoddard and Mike Moffat said back in Oct 2016.

I was trying to find my post, and I saw that @crenca explicitly calls out exactly what you are talking about here with the same video of the Schiit guys:

MQA Finale: Both Anti- and Pro- Forces Have Their Successes and Failure

The Dolby comparison with MQA is actually useful, as long one remembers it’s not a strict analogy. Mike Moffat of Schiit here explains in his over the top way: [Schiit Audio's Jason Stoddard & Mike Moffat October 2016 -- Darko.Audio] @John [Moderated] asks why “we” don’t complain of this particular monopoly and tax. Well we do, but this is the Roon community and this thread is about MQA. Monopolies are very hard to break within consumer markets, almost always requiring govern…

@Mikael_Ollars

I am curious whether Roon will drop the ability to decode any local MQA files. […]
Or does the license allow Roon to maintain the compatibility?

I’ve looked at the contract again briefly, and it looks like there is a grace period in the worst-case scenario. However, how the contract goes depends on what happens to the MQA intellectual property post-administration.

@Mikael_Ollars

For what it’s worth, i hope that manufacturers and the business learns from this, and perhaps stay away from non-open source codecs and formats going forward…

Maybe MQA will go open? I have no idea, but I can only hope.

[Menzies]

On topic.

Last night I listened to David Elias’ Acoustic Trio DSD Sessions (Remastered). This is in MQA on Tidal.

There are two versions. One is redbook and the other is an MQA version.

The below screenshot is the signal path for the MQA version (bottom of post).

I like this album because of the acoustic guitar, vocals and is a good easy listen.

With my MQA rendering DAC, Dragonfly Cobalt, I have heard occasional differences for the better when listening and comparing MQA to non MQA. Last night is the first time I listened to the above in MQA.

Through my Cobalt to HiFiMan Sundara closed back headphones I was very impressed by the audible differences with the MQA version. I wrote elsewhere it had more zing. I also didn’t know the Cobalt could unfold past 96kHz but it appears it can/did.

I don’t know if these two versions came from the same master, but I was mighty impressed by the MQA version.

We all have different views on MQA. People will potentially loose their jobs if MQA shuts their doors for good. I do not wish that upon anyone, ever. I hope they have success and continue (real) improvements in the fantastic world of music.

Long term, there is a need for MQA support for those with personal libraries of downloaded content.

[Mikael_Ollars]

I won’t comment on subjective sound quality, but one thing that i did enthuse about when MQA was introduced, was the possibility of ascertaining the pedigree and source of a media file, and that i’d like too see fulfilled. Only in a non license based realization, a public domain certificate based signing would be sufficient.

[Menzies]

@Mikael_Ollars

one thing that i did enthuse about when MQA was introduced, was the possibility of ascertaining the pedigree and source of a media file, and that i’d like too see fulfilled. Only in a non license based realization, a public domain certificate based signing would be sufficient.

In full agreement with that.

[ffk (Doctors Practice. Plumbers Perform.)]

@Menzies

Long term, there is a need for MQA support for those with personal libraries of downloaded content.

Only if you use something like hqplayer where you’d want to send the MQA file with the first unfold done.

[Menzies]

DACs also, don’t you think?

[wklie (Peter Lie)]

@Menzies

Long term, there is a need for MQA support for those with personal libraries of downloaded content.

There are also rips of MQA CD (primarily in Asia, I guess).

[j_a_m_i_e]

@Mikael_Ollars

the possibility of ascertaining the pedigree and source of a media file, and that i’d like too see fulfilled. Only in a non license based realization, a public domain certificate based signing would be sufficient.

To some extent you can do that via a simple MD5 hash of the data.

Obviously that only works if the if you have a lossless copy of the stream or file, transmit it via a lossy compression algorithm and the hash won’t match as the file has been altered.

There seems to have been a few attempts over the years to compile a central database of hashes / fingerprints.

https://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Fingerprinting

[j_a_m_i_e]

@Menzies

Based on those who’ve purchased MQA music, the need for MQA support continues no matter what happens.

I suppose this is the problem with proprietary codecs, particularly when it comes to archiving rather than distribution.

As Danny & Mike say above, Maybe MQA will go open, but there’s no guarantee of that.

But it’s problay a warning for the future, that storing your files (not you personally) in a proprietary format (especially when perfectly usable, non-proprietary lossless formats exist for that purpose) problay isn’t the wisest idea if you want to ensure they will always readable/playable years down the line.

[Henry_McLeod (Henry)]

@j_a_m_i_e

But it’s problay a warning for the future, that storing your files (not you personally) in a proprietary format (especially when perfectly usable, non-proprietary lossless formats exist for that purpose) problay isn’t the wisest idea if you want to ensure they will always readable/playable years down the line.

I am pretty sure there hasn’t been an archiving method invented in the last 200 years we cannot play back today. And indeed when that is software based you just need to figure out the code. And it is just FLAC so it’ll still sound pretty much like it supposed to without unfolding.