How much is Roon worth? What investments should it displace?

IMHO, the discussion is looking at the wrong end of the horse. (Wow, I just made up my own folksy saying!).

The point that I think started the discussion on pricing is that Roon is priced high within its market, and as such it creates expectations that it will be a premium product. Very rough and hard to use areas of the interface will be addressed. Metadata, one of the core parts of Roon’s marketing claims, will either be fixed or a streamlined process created for manual correction. If it costs 8x JRiver it should be somewhere near 8x better (and actually it is more than 8x the price since JRiver allows multiple concurrent use of a single license).

I think subscribers are willing to be somewhat patient while Roon ascends that curve, but I think it is fine to continually point this out and keep the heat on as long as there are significant parts of the product that are sub-par.

After reading some of Brian’s posts on what the Roon team has been doing, I think (1) their subscriber base grew a little faster than they expected and (2) the Qobuz integration created some sort of unexpected issue with the speed and responsiveness of the application, and thus it moved Roon a bit off their development schedule while they focus on the backend infrastructure necessary to adjust to both.

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Actually James, it is the opposite, post (16, I think) that started pricing discussion, was one that stated Roon’s pricing was “a great deal”

I think we’ve moved off pricing per se and moved on to value vs income model and how future proof is the income model.

Restating: I don’t feel the price is overly high, but I don’t feel the value is equivalent to the price (yet) either. All the other points are just musings from someone who makes a substantial part of his living by adjusting business plans to conform with economical reality.

And that is not always an easy task, believe me.

My thoughts on Roon after more than two years of using it: I like it very much. And if I didn’t like it anymore (for whatever reason), I’d cancel my (yearly) subscription.

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Read what I wrote. I explain what I mean very clearly. Extra cash is generated initially by lifetime subscriptions. Then, some 4.2 years down the road, plus some time due to inflation, there is a break even point for Roon. After that, Roon has lifetime subscribers on the books for free compared to customers that pay for the annual subscriptions.

I’ve had a lifetime subscription to Sirius Radio for about 15 years. I never use it for music, because it sounds horrible, but, it’s still there, working fine.

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Once more for the peanut gallery:

Extra means superfluous to requirement. What you are describing is deferred income. This is upfront income to be put to use to fulfill the obligations incurred from the upfront payment. In other words: prefinancing by customers.

It is not - in any way, shape or form - extra. On the contrary: it is bargain basement income that will cause a cash flow deficit along the way.

Running costs, overhead, maintenance, R&D will all need to be financed on a continous basis. A healthy business model should ideally be as simple as revenue - exploitation costs (cash/non cash/financial etc.) = Profit.

Now find where you took a wrong turn in your reasoning.

I’m not going to argue with as you are clearly more qualified on the economics.

However, I think you miss a couple points.

First, there are some of us (a small number I’m sure) that despise the subscription model (let’s not debate whether that opinion is warranted). It was highly likely I’d never have bought into Roon had there not been a lifetime deal. So Roon got $500 from me rather than $0. I think that’s a win for them.

Secondly, I think you over simplify the part about the extra cash on day one. As was later pointed out, they do in fact get an extra ~$400 on day one. For any of our discussions to be relevant, Roon has to “make it”. It’s certainly not over the hump yet. Startups have to make it out of startup mode to succeed. A large part of that is having enough cash to make it. Generally that cash comes from investors. Investors cost a startup dearly. It’s a [necessary] deal with the devil. The lifetime deal gives Roon an influx of cash. Their only debt to me is to let me continue to use the product.

No hard feelings about anyone here, just my two cents. I’d prefer we just talk about how to make Roon a better product so that it will be here for many years to come.

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Roon are effectively a small (and hopefully) growing SME, with probably exorbitant R&D/overhead costs at the moment, that will probably remain that way for a few years yet. In essence, at the moment I would imagine that Roon needs ‘cash yesterday and not tomorrow’.
It makes perfect sense in the first few years to offer a ‘lifetime’ subscription, at an albeit higher value than a subscription model, to generate cash, improve cash-flow and drive growth.
I would imagine that when the Roon product becomes more mature, and market penetration increases, measured in positive cash-flow terms, that they would cease to offer a lifetime subscription option.
Lifetime subscribers are effectively ‘early adopters’.
Why is it so difficult for you to understand such a simple concept??

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A few points I think some people here are missing on licensing fees that I’m pretty sure Roon understands well enough is that software like Roon, especially software that is in a constant state of flux and change, and has a tremendous amount of similar competition, much of it half the cost, the majority of it free of cost, is going to suffer a very high turnover of the customer base. Roon has some warts to it. And at it’s core, it’s nothing more than a media manager and audio player. Every computer already comes with one built in. Apple, the world’s wealthiest company, already supplies a pretty full featured one free of charge to even owners of competing computer OSes. Plus there’s all the open source alternatives. And smaller commercial software at much less cost such as Audirvana. Streaming customers get very full featured players from Tidal, Qobuz, or others for “free” (or included in their subscription, more accurately.) Roon IS expensive. It may not cost more than someone’s esoteric amplifier and phono cartridge, but compared to software that does the core functionality of it, it’s many orders of magnitude more expensive. It relies on doing the same thing, but better for differentiation.

A subscription costs more than a subscription to a year of Apple Music, Spotify, Tidal (basic), Qobuz (basic), or Spotify (when they run sales.) Think about that. For the same price or less you get access to most of the available music on Earth plus a pretty full featured music player software. Versus just getting a piece of player software and library manager.

Given that setup, and the rapid changes throughout the whole of the music industry, a lifetime license pays for about 4 years of subscription. The argument on pricing always comes down to the assumption that if you use Roon for 10 or 20 years you’re stealing money from them. But what about all the users who might subscribe for a year or two, hit some of the warts, realize they’re not seeing too much meaningful value out of it, and drop it. The lifers are worth 300%-400% the value of those users, and do not impact any metrics on active users negatively as those users would, which may be important for securing A) Investment, B) Partner interest from streaming and hardware companies. In SaaS, numbers matter even more than raw revenue. Not even just SaaS, these days. Spotify’s consistently lost money from day 1. So has Amazon’s retail unit. Never made a penny, either of them. Investors shove money into them like they’re running out of space to stack the 20s. Direct revenues are so 20th century. Now we track losses as a function of monopoly status and data acquisition opportunity!

Additionally there’s the percentage of users, such as myself, that, were there not a lifetime option and it were a fixed $120/yr sub, I would not have even gone beyond Roon’s front page before laughing and leaving. I’m a fan, and a customer, but the idea of $120/yr for life for player software wouldn’t be of interest to me. $500 once is very expensive for software, but I can rationalize that much better. There are no doubut many others who can bit their lip and pay out once like a piece of hardware, but may not wish to jump in on dedicating endless subscriptions on top of the subscriptions for streaming (that delivery substantially greater value for money.)

Atop that, subscription fatigue is becoming a real thing. BUSINESS loves subscription. Consumers are hitting a wall on it.

Finally, there is demographic. Who is Roon’s future market? Right now it may be 50+ males of an upper income bracket who can easily say “pssh, I spent more on my RCA connectors than this!” “Traditional audiophiles.” But where is it going to be in 10 years? In 20? That bunch isn’t getting younger, and milking endless subscriptions out of them forever won’t float the ship endlessly. Roon, to a degree has to decide if Roon is a product with a very small audience, like a high end speaker company, that will hope to milk that small demographic forever until the next set of similar people approaches retirement, or if Roon would rather try to go more mass market, as the “definitive” computer audio player for music lovers. I.E. is the future of Roon to be a software equivalent of Meridian or the software equivalent of JBL? There’s pros and cons either way, but that younger, larger, group isn’t going to favor renting a media manager that costs more than “all the music in the world” does. But one time buys can be made appetizing even to that group, and arguably if it grows much more prominent the cost could be knocked down heavily in the future. Roon itself probably doesn’t have an answer to that, and is likely just trying to be flexible to have the abilty to go whichever way the winds need them to go.

Roon is no doubt aware of all this, and factoring it into their decisions. Too many see a black and white “sustained income versus liability” when there’s a lot more that goes into how pricing is used to generate revenue in a model like this.

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Free trial here as well, I’m about a day into it. From what I’ve seen Plex handles album art substantially better than Roon does, but Roon seems to be equally good with basic text metadata, albeit more manual decisions about whether to use Roon or File seem to be needed (Plex is somehow smart about this). That said, I had an instance or two where Roon’s manual match ended up being better than any Plex match, automatic or manual. So I’m sure there are cases where either performs worse or better.

I definitely like how Roon adds all the extra stuff though like who plays what instrument and numerous other small details that are great to see/know about. Plex doesn’t do that as far as I’m aware.

My other one issue is the visual look when casting to Chromecast - the album art should be larger, and honestly, why is the artist art so massive? It’s cool to show the artist, but the problem is, if the artist picture is only decent quality, it can look pretty bad. I was listening to a John Zorn record, the casting functionality worked excellent, the album art looked fine once I chose “File” (it was an 11 disc set, when set to ‘Roon’ it just gave all 11 discs the same album art rather than their unique art), but the artist art was just this massive blurry image zoomed in on John Zorn’s face, lol. Kinda ruined the look of the whole thing, and honestly, no offense to Mr. Zorn, not exactly something you wanna stare at for hours. When no artist art is available, it just blurs the album art and blows it up hugely - why not just make the album art itself at least somewhat larger? That’s what I wanna look at after all :slight_smile:

To me Plex’s Chromecast visual look is much prettier.

That being said, Roon kicks Plex’s ass many times over on actually figuring out how to cast any and all lossless files properly, I can finally cast my ALAC, and my 24/96 FLAC actually plays. This is why I found Roon in the first place, as Plex just chokes on the latter and transcodes the former, with no user-friendly settings to fix it. Chromecast does bring the sample rate down to 48k with Roon, but I hear you can fix this by grouping with a Chromecast Audio - I have one and will try it this weekend.

The purple/green indicator light and signal chain visual is also one of the coolest features I’ve ever seen, and so damn useful. Why has nobody else done this?

Sadly I doubt I can afford the subscription - is there a monthly option? Regardless I find Roon pretty fascinating and may return in the future if the required cash eventually seems worth it. It’s damn close and tempting now, but Plex’s superior fit and finish and album art handling (all free) vs. Roon (expensive), just not quite there yet.

Edit: Saw a post above that a lot of Roon-ers are 50+, maybe that’s why I find it expensive, I’m 28 haha.

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Because the concept is fundamentally flawed.

You might think I’m not qualified to make this statement, but I’ve got the qualifactions, regulated professional title and loyal client portfolio to back up my analysis.

And if @Ken_Lesniak is representative for a substantial part of the customer pool, the subscription model is shaky as well, which means that a healthy revenue stream might even be less than feasible in the future.

[Moderated]

Short term solutions should stay short term. If a steady revenue stream is not achieved within the planned time frame, it is time to shut the endeavour down.

To be frank (Haha! No pun intended, I assure you!):
[Moderated]
I’ll qualify: ‘Do you know what Roon’s expansion strategy is?’ Ermm… No. ‘Do you know how many users/subscribers Roon gains/loses each month?’ Ermm… No. ‘Do you know what Roon’s cash-flow surplus/deficit is, on a quarterly basis?’ Ermm… No. Etc. Etc. Etc. Ad infinitum
[Moderated].

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No, you think the concept is fundamentally flawed. Obviously many businesses have chosen to do the exact same thing that Roon is doing. SiruisXM is just one prominent example.

You are making a diagnosis of a patient without examining him. If you are the professional you claim to be, you would know that is just plain improper to do.

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You’re new here, but we do not brag about our career and financial status.

And referring to other forum members like this is unacceptable.

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Mods have Moderated some posts. Please stop talking about each other. No one cares.

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No one knows Roon economic model for today or the future. They could be independently wealthy, they may or may not have significant investors, we do t know how much their cloud servers and storage cost, we don’t know their partnership deals, the cost of benefits, whether developers are employees or contract.

It’s fine to abstractly debate consumer behavior and subscriptions but it is not directly applicable to Roon. We don’t know their sets of strategic, customer, marketing, tactical, and financial decisions and drivers.

The OP posted about the challenges of meta data in electronic music.

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This OP resonated with me. My experience:

  1. End Feb: Had used iTunes for many years. Wanted better mobile control. iTunes Remote from iPhone/AppleWatch/iPad not doing it for me.

  2. Download Roon, try it. Using iPad as interface, Roon core on laptop. Very unwieldy trying to navigate my music (swipe sideways 20 times within a genre to find something…?). Read Roon’s AMG review of an album. Very opinionated. Look at metadata. Jimi Hendrix’s “Highway Chile” has Bob Dylan as a songwriting credit. My thoughts: “Huh, pay $120/year or $500 for this???” Cancel trial.

  3. March: Go back to iTunes. Felt even more horrible after Roon visuals. Try Audirvana. Mobile control from iPad feeling lacking. Try Roon again (my wife signed up for a trial). This time, use Audirvana to navigate my library and decide on what album I want to listen to, then use Roon to play it. My thoughts: “Hmm, this is a better experience…”

  4. March: continue to use free trial. Using DSP from iPad very liberating for me (instead of constantly going over and fiddling with multiple subwoofers). Experience Roon Radio, very nice (both with Tidal/Qobuz and within my own collection). Find myself listening to music much more, presumably because of Roon mobile interface (nothing else had changed in my setup). Begin to appreciate the ability to read about the album/artist right there in the same software. Begin to think that the appealing visual element of Roon adds to my enjoyment of the auditory experience.

  5. Mid-March, near end of free trial: Question to myself [and this is the part that I thought was similar to ideas expressed in the OP]: How much is this augmenting my music listening experience and enjoyment of music? Five times more than Audirvana? As much as a subwoofer that I added? Yes, and yes.

  6. At end of free trial: pay for lifetime membership.

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What investments should it displace?
Hifi rule number one. If Hifi requires compromise or sacrifice in any other area of your life, you have your priorities wrong.
Hifi rule number two. Do what you are comfortable with. I personally hated the idea of stumping up a hundred notes annually.

When I was able to find the means to pay for lifetime without violating rule number one I did. And I did so on the basis of what was in front of me at that time. Not Roon’s potential, though I can’t deny the wait for ROCK was tough because I didn’t like Windows. As for the wisdom in Roon offering a lifetime option, I am glad they did, and as of this moment I have invested in Roon to the tune of 6 years revenue up front. The time when I become a burden to Roon as a none paying, entitled hanger on are still a good few years down the road!

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Very cool question/concept. I’m going to put my own little take/off-shoot on it, and look at it through the lense of who WOULDN’T I recommend Roon too. Roon isn’t for everyone. It isn’t the best place to make your first $500 investment (or $120 a year) if you’re just getting going. So, with that as my mindset, here’s a list of criteria I think should probably be met/be in place before someone should consider allocating $500 (or $120-per) towards getting Roon. I don’t think I’d recommend Roon to someone that doesn’t already:

  1. have at least one “quality” transistor (speakers or headphones), even if it’s entry-priced as long as it’s known to “hit well above it’s price-point”… looking at my own audio journey and gear, I’m thinking to myself about my Sennheiser HD-6XX headphones ($200) and my EMP Tek r5Bi bookshelve speakers (I’m pretty sure they were only $225 when I bought them 5-7 years ago)…
  2. Adequate amplification for the above “quality speaker or headphone”. It doesn’t have to be high end or premium, it just has to be up to the task (impedance, sensitivity, voltage, etc)… I use a $500 Schiit Jotunheim DAC/AMP with said Sennheiser’s ($725 total for headphones, DAC/AMP, and USB cable), and for years I used an affordable (old and out-dated when I bought it) Pioneer AVR I bought on a Woot sale for $140… $425ish, total, for the speakers, the AVR, some speaker cable, and Chromecast Audio to get my music to and through it…
  3. Has some higher-quality-digital files (preferably CD-quality over high-bitrate MP3/AAC), and/or subscriptions to either Tidal or Qobuz…

Without those 3 things? I don’t think Roon adds enough value to justify the cost. IMO, money should instead to allocated to getting those 3 things to a place where they’re “Roon Ready” (apologize for the Pun).

With those things in hand, Roon begins to really be able to add value, in terms of how you organize, control, and enjoy your music as you listen to it… I’ve had the lifetime subscription for about 4 months now, and it’s literally the best $500 I’ve spent on “audio” in a while… I’m a huge fan. I understand why it took me so long to do it, but I sure am glad I finally got to a place where I decided I could/should take the plunge… really great software.

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