Is it me or does Roon degrade sound

[Marian (I stand with Ukraine)]

@miguelito

And that’s what I mean obviously. Timing can either be internal or driven externally by a SPDIF signal.

In case of S/PDIF, the signal should have the same quality every time, provided the send buffers never overflow or underflow, regardless of the timing in the digital domain before the S/PDIF link.

[miguelito (Miguel Barrio)]

Well that’s the point: Buffering and reclocking is not part of the standard and not done in many cases precisely because of the risk of over/underrun. There are proper ways around that even in the SPDIF design: global clocks (like dCS implements) or I2S with “clockback” (1) (where the clock comes back from the DAC - there are such implementations). Or use a different protocol such as USB Audio or RAAT.

(1) I just made up that term!

[danny (Danny Dulai)]

included jitter as point 3

[Marian (I stand with Ukraine)]

@miguelito

Or use a different protocol such as USB Audio or RAAT.

Let’s not massage together these types of protocols: RAAT and the streamer-DAC link. Roon ends at RAAT, and RAAT is a TCP-based network protocol with built-in flow control. Network clocks are irrelevant, since network speed is quite sufficient for making sure streamer buffers are in good shape at any time. From that point on, everything is equal.

[danny (Danny Dulai)]

@miguelito

Or use a different protocol such as USB Audio or RAAT.

Which are still subject to I2S usually.

You have to get the data to the DAC chip somehow. That ESS chip doesn’t speak USB or TCP, and probably lacks sufficient error correction coding – but I’ve never integrated these chips into a product.

[danny (Danny Dulai)]

@Marian

Network clocks are irrelevant, since network speed is quite sufficient for making sure streamer buffers are in good shape at any time. From that point on, everything is equal.

THIS.

I speak to this “network speed is quite sufficient” here:

Valley of "audiophile" ethernet cables

That is not at all what I am implying… When a digital audio stream is altered it can happen a few ways: bits are changed and/or lost and caught by error correction techniques causing a retransmit bits are changed and/or lost and not caught by error correction techniques so they are allowed to be played In the case of #1, if the errors are caught, a retransmit can be requested and if the retransmitted data arrives fast enough that the buffer is not emptied, then the resultant stream is still …

[skingers]

I’ve also noticed red wine improves the sound of most things as well!

[Bill_Janssen (Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)]

@miguelito

Buffering and reclocking is not part of the standard and not done in many cases precisely because of the risk of over/underrun.

Which standard are you thinking of? S/PDIF? AES?

But you know, there are standards, and then again there is engineering. I don’t think you’re going to find any chip-based DACs on the market today which don’t do buffering of their digital inputs. And re-clocking, on the i2s internal bus. Jitter due to digital bit delivery is simply not an issue today, though it might have been in the distant past.

[Menzies]

@mikeb

7

Well, considering this thread was solved with the number 7, it’s continued and gotten quite technical. Good.

With Roon and a wee bit of DSP this sounds very good to me
https://i.imgur.com/A0cpU57.png

As the thread is titled

“Is it me or does Roon degrade sound”

I feel the issue was the OPs crossfade setting was being used that caused what was believe to be degradation to SQ.

So the answer really was “It’s you”

If the title was “Does Roon degrade sound quality?”

The answer would have been “no, but you could degrade it with the incorrect settings within Roon on some particular systems such as the OPs”

I’m going to listen to more jazz now. Thank you Roon

[Bill_Janssen (Wigwam wool socks now on asymmetrical isolation feet!)]

So you’re saying both options are correct?

[Vitor_Goncalves (Vitor)]

Thank you Danny

[Menzies]

@Bill_Janssen

So you’re saying both options are correct?

Not quite.

SQ can be degraded on any system if the incorrect choice of settings are used with any platform/software. But it’s personal choice as well. What is ok for one may not be ok for another.

DSP applied without headroom can cause clipping - SQ is degraded. So on and so on.

On the OPs system, having crossfade in use caused the SQ to degrade to their ears and taste. Roon isn’t the issue as such.

If I set DSP to cause distortion in the low end around 70hZ then I’ll hear it no matter what I’m using. This was human error not a Roon error.

[wideopensource]

It would be awesome if someone gifted Amir a rossini dac and he measured it, disliked the results and smashed it with a sledgehammer. That, would be a cool video.

[hmack]

@maximasr

Let me qualify my remark, for the money, the LINN is nowhere near the top of it’s class, in fact, many dacs for a lot less money sound better.

A very bold statement, but one that is very easy to make and certainly not a view that is universally shared.

Of course, although I have heard various incarnations of the Linn Klimax in my system and others, I obviously haven’t heard every streaming DAC or streamer/DAC combos at a lower price than that of the Linn Klimax, so it would be interesting to hear your opinion of which DACs are significantly better at a significantly lower price point.

Would you care to mention some of the significantly cheaper streaming DACs or streamer/DAC combos DACs that sound better to your ears and in your system, and does your opinion also relate to other streaming DACs at a similar price point to the Linn Klimax, or is your comment specifically aimed at Linn products and the Linn Klimax in particular. I assume of course that you have listened to the said Linn streaming DAC in your own system or one that is of a reasonably high quality?

[Anthony_B (Tony)]

@hmack

Would you care to mention some of the significantly cheaper streaming DACs or streamer/DAC combos DACs that sound better to your ears

Shouldn’t be too difficult given the cost of the Linn gear, but I too am interested in the answers to this.

[Johnny_Too_Bad (John)]

Don’t think Roon degrades sound, it does however not work well with certain streamers/bridges. Can guess as to why but wouldn’t blame Roon for a manufacturer’s design philosophy.

[Anthony_B (Tony)]

Are you suggesting that this is deliberate on the part of the device manufacturers ( )? Roon have stated that they leave this aspect up to the device manufacturers of course. So if you do notice any SQ issues, you know who to complain to.
Ask them why their bit-perfect sounds different to Roon’s bit-perfect.

[francisco_gaston]

Hi Linn Klimax is a good streamer but one potential reason of your preceived degradation of sound could be produced by how you connect your roon to your LINN
If you are connecting Roon from a PC MAC via usb to LINN your usb is introducing noise in your Klimax
If you have your Roon in a separate NUC with poor power supply again computer noise is introduce in your Klimax
I do not know which input you have in your Klimax
Better you connect through your swicht via ethernet or if possible via dhmi
But no not at all roon degrades quality in my experience

[francisco_gaston]

I have a very high high end system and roon is great with it equality or better than others high end hifi systems , extreme very high, just using Qobuz without roon

[Johnny_Too_Bad (John)]

No, I’m suggesting that Roon is a one size fits all. It works very well and I’m happy with it but my equipment is not tailored to some bespoke manufacture’s signal machinations. Clearly there are manufacturers out there that feel that they can do better and often do according to feedback and first hand experience. The problem is that these same manufacturers that take great pains to “improve” their sound, often suffer when using Roon. Roon’s eco system is appealing to a lot of us I use it because of that and the fact the I’ve noticed no degradation with my equipment over the years.

I’ve used solutions from Pi2AES, SOtM, dCS and currently using a opticalRendu. Inuous for example states that their MK3 should not be used as a Server and a streamer and sounds better with their Sense SW than with Roon. Can’t speak for Lynn but it is possible that others at least subjectively feel they can do better and if someone like that output better then they have a decision to make or use the vendor’s own SW if they’re going to critically listen, whatever.

This isn’t a black or white or zero sum game. You can have both and anywhere in between. However if that anywhere in between sounds different or degraded it’s not because of Roon, it’s because of the vendor’s choice to apply on design sw/hw for their own ecosystem and not apply or be able to apply that to RAAT so they can leverage Roon’s ecosystem while maintaining the sound they were aiming for.