Multichannel audio endpoints

[otinkyad]

Thanks very much to all who have provided input on my question (and apologies to @birnbaum that my query hijacked the thread

My stream of thought in trying to digest all of this information has gone something like the following. I’m putting this down here as a way of working through my own thoughts while also thanking everyone. Sorry if this is TMI or too stream-of consciousness:

My starting point:

I’ve been avoiding looking too deeply into (a) trying to get DSD into my Marantz pre/pro while also (b) trying to have it preserved as DSD within the Marantz without conversion to PCM. That’s because I had gathered that this was not possible if I still wanted bass management (I do) and low-frequency boosts (I do).

But then @Mike_LC very kindly explained:

@Mike_LC

The Denon does have a function to boost the low frequencies (0db 5db 10db and 15db) that only works with the analog inputs. I used that with the OPPO for SACD’s to recover the 10DB of bass that gets lost.

Ah, interesting, thank you! The reduced bass is exactly what has bothered me since I started listening to classical music as multichannel SACDs and/or multichannel DSD files. I’ve been addressing it by manually increasing the subwoofer levels under “Speaker Configuration”, which I’m pretty sure involves DSP (and hence DSD → PCM). But now I’ve found the analog low frequency boost function that you mentioned, which seems to also be on my Marantz. It’s this, right? And “7.1 CH IN” is the analog input mode:

Hmm, so maybe I can get a bass boost without incurring DSD → PCM conversion. But wait… can we be sure that this low frequency boost does not involve ADC – DAC…? (Not questioning your information, @Mike_LC which is very greatly appreciated – just wondering about how sure we can be of anything when it comes to pre-pros and receivers…)

And then:

@Burkhardt_Petermann

If you need a bassmanagement, then it doesn’t make send native DSD, because you’ll have in every case … decoding /transformation to PCM… It’s much easier (and cheaper) to use HDMI …

And:

@mitr

Any bass management (and/or other DSP) requires conversion to PCM (or some form of it) regardless of the device.

Right, that’s the understanding I’ve been slowly coming to…

But then:

@Michal_Borkowski

Set all your Denon speakers to small and set Crossovers. Then in bass management set LFE output to SW+Main. Set audio to Direct or Pure Direct. That will give you bass management without any internal A/D->D/A conversion for analog input. Also DSP processing will be disabled. It works for CD input but I’m not sure if for the others. Took me a while to sort that out with a rather average Denon support.

Thanks very much for this, @Michal_Borkowski ! I’ll definitely be interested in trying this and it would be great if I can get it to work! [But again, the little voice in my head, which has little understanding of audio processing, says… how sure can we be that there isn’t a hidden conversion in here…? Again, not questioning you either, @Michal_Borkowski – this just reflects my very limited understanding]

And:

@mitr

Yes and there’s also no need to abstain from conversion of DSD to PCM when the results justify it (as they often do). So many regard the conversion as major horror but, while the audibility of it is highly unlikely, the improvements wrought by bass management/DSP are usually clearly audible.

So then… I infer that there are a few options for me (other than upgrading speakers to all full range, which is infeasible):

1. Stop worrying about pure DSD and learn to live with and love the multichannel audio produced by my Marantz even if it’s PCM. Well, I already love it, just have to learn to live with it and get over grass-is-greener syndrome.

2. Invest in a multichannel DSD DAC (eg Okto), and adopt the methods explained by @Mike_LC and @Michal_Borkowski. In this case, I will still be getting bass management and LFE boost; and hopefully this will be while preserving DSD throughout the chain. Any SQ improvement over Option 1 will be from (presumably) avoiding PCM conversion (but this improvement is likely to be tiny, from what @mitr said), plus any improvements from the DAC being an improvement over the Marantz DACs.

3. Invest in a multichannel DSD DAC (eg Okto), avoid implementing the changes suggested by @Mike_LC and @Michal_Borkowski to avoid the risk that they contain a concealed conversion, and hopefully love the SQ of the DAC over that of Option 1. From what @Mike_LC said, this may be possible, although he may have all full-range speakers, which I don’t…

If you’re still reading, sorry for the ramble. But this helped me think through what the options are.

And lastly… I’ve been told that Roon can do DSP on DSD without PCM conversion:

@Rugby

@otinkyad

is there any DSP in Roon that can be done on a DSD file without triggering PCM

Yes. Go to the DSP setting and Enable Native DSD Processing. I just turned it on and was able to apply Various DSP options without a PCM conversion step. Turn it on and test the DSP options for yourself. Be aware, it will increase the needed computing power.

Is this consistent with other people’s experiences? (Not trying to start arguments, just trying to understand…)

Thanks all, sorry for the novel, and good night!