Repeated dropouts

Support
22

Hi @vova

Well, surprise… or maybe not…

The plot thickens

I went back to the previous configuration with The ST acting as Roon core and I have been listening for nearly an hour without a hiccup.

The setup is exactly the same as before, except that:

  1. I deleted and reloaded the Roon Server app on the Sonic Transporter
  2. I have only mounted two small folders from the NAS. So it is working with a library of 559 tracks as opposed to 67000+ when I was having problems.

These are the only differences. Could it be that the size of the library created some problems in Roon Server on my ST and that this led to the dropouts? (Note that the dropouts occurred with analysis turned off, but perhaps some other background process ran amok??)

I will remount the whole library overnight and see what happens tomorrow.

Regards

Marco

23

Hi Marco,

This KB page sets out some of the causes of dropouts. Size of library and hardware capacity can be an issue.

24

Hi @Andrew

Thanks for pointing out the page. I had seen it but studied it again for good measure. I believe I have concluded the testing necessary to isolate the problem and I will report in a forthcoming post.

Regards

Marco

25

Hi @Vova

I have concluded testing and will attempt to summarize the previous chapters of this story, starting from the beginning and in more-or-less chronological order:

Original setup: Sonic Transporter as Roon Core and Microrendu as endpoint/player connected to Chord Hugo TT DAC; library (67000+ tracks) on a Synology 1515+ NAS; NAS, Sonic Transporter and Microrendu connected with Ethernet cables to a Cisco switch. Roon controlled from a Mac connected to the same network (ethernet). Dropouts every 3-5 minutes, sometimes more frequently, on High resolution as well as CD resolution music. Occasional skipping to next track. Removing the NAS by playing files loaded on the Sonic Transporter’s internal SSD did not fix the problem. Removing the Microrendu and the NAS by playing these same files from the ST through my Mac’s internal audio did not fix the problem. I also tried to switch the MAC off and control Roon from an Ipad but this did not change anything.

Reviewed the network setup: installed a Cisco wired router and a new Cisco switch upstream of the switch (thus removing the routing duties from the cheap ISP modem/router) and checked all the cables and switch (all brand new). Assigned fixed DHCP addresses to the ST, Microrendu and NAS. This did not fix the problem. Note: in later testing I also disconnected the switch linking the NAS/Roon Core/Endpoint from the rest of the network after starting play, as you suggested, and the dropouts continued.

Tested the original setup (with the new network including the Cisco router) by excluding Roon and using Squeezeserver on the Sonic Transporter and Squeezelite on the Microrendu. No problems with CD res and High res music (DSD64, 24/192). I loaded the entire library of 67000+ tracks on Squeezeserver, and heard no dropouts in a couple of hours of testing.

Moved the core to my Mac, loaded a small library (559 tracks) on the Mac’s internal disk and shut down the Sonic Transporter. No dropouts playing either through the Mac’s audio or through the Microrendu. I then tried this with a small library on the NAS (about 40 records, less than 1000 tracks) and no dropouts form the NAS through the Microrendu.

I then tried the original setup, deleting and reloading Roon server from the Sonic Transporter and mounting the small library (40 records) on the NAS. Surprise, no dropouts with CD res and High res music (DSD64, 24/192). This was my last post addressed to you.

Then I remounted the entire 67000+ track library on the Sonic Transporter (figuring that reloading Roon server might have fixed something). Back to dropouts and occasional skipping to the next track, with both CD res and High res music. Dropouts were more frequent with high-res music. Average of 1 dropout every 6 minutes with a DSD64 file, 1 dropout every 12 minutes with a CD-res file. Note that the frequency of dropouts with the DSD64 file appears to have been roughly halved compared to the previous Roon setup on the ST - I don’t know whether this is clue of some kind.

It occurred to me to exclude the ST again and test the Mac as the core again, but this time with the full library (67k+ tracks) from the NAS. Everything works fine. I have listened for hours to music of varying resolution, including two hours of music at 24bits/352 khz, and not a single dropout. (To be complete, when I first started to listen I got occasional short bursts of static/noise but I rebooted the Mac and they disappeared. I have since shut down and restarted the Mac and never heard the noise again.)

By the way, I checked the resolution being played at the DAC level and it always matched the original file’s, no up-sampling or downsampling occurring. The Mac is a 2008 MacPro with 2x2.8 ghz Quad-Core Intel Xeon, 16Gb of Ram, and the software running on an SSD.

My emerging conclusions at this stage:

  1. The network is not the cause
  2. The problem only occurs with the Sonic Transporter and with the complete library; no problem with the Sonic Transporter and a small library (less than 1000 tracks). Problems heard only with Roon, not when using Squeezeserver/squeezelite

So the cause seems to be with the Sonic Transporter/Roon combination.

If these conclusions are correct what remains to be verified is the cause: as the Sonic Transporter has been designed and tested to function with Roon, and my library does not appear to be outside the working size range according to what I read from the manufacturer, it remains to be seen whether the cause is a faulty device or a software bug. At least, that is what my (somewhat limited) logic suggests.

I look forward to your thoughts

Regards

Marco

1 Like
26

Let’s ask @agillis what he thinks.

27

I’ve had – and have – exactly the same problem with my Antipodes server. I think it must be a bug in the implementation of Roon Server on this family of Linux streamers when there are large libraries (40k tracks). I hope that there will be a fix.

28

@Aaron
thanks for your helpful comment. Your hypothesis of a software bug makes a lot of sense to me.

Andrew Gillis, who makes the Sonic Transporter, tells me a large library might make the database functions a bit sluggish, but should in no way affect playback of single files.

And in my case (I assume it is the same for you), there are no problems with a small database (1k-2k files), only with the full database (67k+). I have not tested intermediate sizes to see if there is a threshold.

Regards

Marco

29

Antipodes tried it with a 20k database and there were no problems. I switched the router, moved the files to internal storage from the NAS, etc. and the problem persists. The only remaining possibility is that it’s a problem of the interaction between ROON Server on this machine and the DAC, and I will try another DAC to test this. I doubt that it is the problem though because you and I are having identical difficulties on similar machines with different DACs.

30

Worth trying a different DAC to be certain. Note that I tried using the MAC’s internal output instead of my DAC and it didn’t change anything. Still had dropouts.

31

I’ve done that as well. Listening right now through the dropouts. I get dropouts on TIDAL under some circumstances as well. That and the fact that the Audio Analysis is so bizarrely slow, even on “Fast” (I discontinued it like you did as well) leads me to believe that something buggy is taxing the processor when there are a lot of library tracks.

32

@Marco_Castaldo I believe your difficulties arise because the standard SonicTransporter has a Celeron processor that may be fine with libraries up to 27,000 tracks but is quite inadequate for a library of 67,000 tracks.

I understand there is an i5 model of the ST which would much better suit your needs and would encourage you to send a PM to @agillis about changing to that model.

@Aaron_Garrett, it may be that the Antipodes has similar issues, what spec CPU does it have ?

33

Correct the standard sonicTransporter doesn’t work well for large libraries. I recommend of sonicTranspoter i5 for this. It has 8GB of memory a Full i5 and anlso more SSD space for your Roon database.

As a bonus you can do upsampling or DSD to PCM conversion with it if you want.

I would be happy to swap out your standard sonicTransporter for the sonicTransporter i5. You would just need to pay the difference.

For anybody else reading this thread the standard sonicTransporter works very well for music collections under 24K tracks. This works for 95% of my customers that on average have 5,000 - 10,000 tracks in their libraries.

34

Andrew, I will send you a PM
Marco

1 Like
35

This might be the problem. I have a lot fewer tracks though. I also have 2TB of SSD drive.

36

Antipodes Audio have tested using 200,000 tracks mounted externally and with 50,000 tracks mounted internally. Drop-outs only occurred during the first couple of days with each, while the Roon Server software pulled in metadata and the drop outs went away completely after that. This has been reported to Roon many weeks ago. It seems to us that there needs to be some more work done on relative process priority when both apps are run on the same machine. We have also tested using an i7 based unit and the experience is no different, except that searches run faster, which was
quite noticeable with 200,000 tracks.

37

I just did the upgrade to Build 147 and have now listened to a 192/24 track for 6 minutes with no dropouts. I listened to the same track (Sonny Rollins St. Thomas) right before the upgrade and there were stutters every ten seconds. Time will tell, but this is very promising.
UPDATE – Listened to Saxophone Colossus in its entirety w/out a dropout.

38

hello, have you read this?

39

Just did. Interesting. So far still no dropouts on my much smaller library. I did have a static breakup on a 192 WAV track, but that might have a different cause.

40

Please refrain from posting your isolated issue in more than one thread

The issue you have is CLEARLY related to the antiquated Pentium processor that you have chosen to run your Roon Core on…especially on your 200,000 Track library

You have been told this on several occasions now…so please act on this advise before posting unnecessary links

When you have tens of thousand of Roon users operating without the issues you are seeing…then surely you should recognize that the problem lies with your system and not elsewhere??

1 Like
41

UPDATE: A few dropouts. Less. Mostly near when a track starts.