Roon ready DAP 2023 (Updated Title)

[Jim_F]

I use an iPad Mini 6 and iPad 8th Generation also, but for my headphone setup at home, the RPi4 running RoPieeeXL is my preference. I almost always us my Dell laptop as Roon control.

You said you have no application for a DAC plugged into your phone, but that works well with wired headphones and Roon ARC. I think it’s the same application as Chord Poly without the dropouts.

Use what works for you. We’re just having a discussion here that might be beneficial for others also.

I almost stopped using my Dragonfly Cobalt in favor of a FiiO KA1. It’s just so much better than using the clunky camera adapter when walking my dog.

[CrystalGipsy (Resisting the flow!)]

I have a KA1 on my Christmas wish list as like you. Can’t be bothered with all the bulky adaptors needed to get the Dragonfly to work, that and I fing my blacks volume is too loud it goes from nothing to deafening by 6 on the indicator too much gain for me iems I feel.

[gTunes]

Not sure you followed exactly what I did. I probably explained it poorly.

The trick for me was to create a wireless network dedicated to the Poly. The Poly is literally the only client on that network.

Radio strength is global - you can’t specific a per-network radio strength. You can specify per-network behaviors like fast roaming. I tested various configurations and found that the Poly was less likely to drop its connection when roaming if fast roaming was disabled. I wouldn’t put money on this but it did seem to be the case.

Everything you said about roaming is correct for general usage. The Poly is an exception. It doesn’t make smart choices about when to roam or what to roam to. You can turn on client notifications in UniFi and see what’s connecting, roaming, etc. The Poly just wanted to jump and, when it did, it would often stop playing or jump to the next track. Bumping up 2.4GHz signal strength and reducing the APs that it could see helped quite a bit. It meant that if I walked from one point in the house to another, it wouldn’t leap to some access point and then leap again to another when that intermediate point happened to be on the route. The layout of my house makes this stuff tricky but things are working pretty well at this point.

I do, by the way, get coverage overlap. Been using UniFi for a lot of years and have done this now in multiple houses

[gTunes]

@Jim_F

You said you have no application for a DAC plugged into your phone, but that works well with wired headphones and Roon ARC. I think it’s the same application as Chord Poly without the dropouts.

I’m not sure what comment of mine you’re referring to. I’m not sure it matters, though. I’m not sure what we’re debating or if we’re debating.

You like your Dell + Pi + Chord setup. I like the Poly. I think you have more opinions about what I should do than I have about what you should do

[Jim_F]

OK, then. I’m out.

[CrystalGipsy (Resisting the flow!)]

I already have several Wi-Fi networks for different things , general, Roon and one for Chromecasts/TVs. Works well.

[gTunes]

@Jim_F

OK, then. I’m out.

I didn’t intent to start something here. I’m sorry if it came off that way.

Seriously - thanks for your input. I think we have different preferences and that’s ok.

[Martijn_Edelman (m E)]

Hi All
I have a headphone setup I love (Bartok + Feliks Envy + Meze Elite) but portable…it is not.

I also use an ifi GoBlu with some Meze Empyrean or Elite headphones at work or at friends houses and its great however I am also interested in a nice DAP to take it to the next level.

I was looking at the A&K SP3000 but that price seems a little toooo much. I could afford it and choose to not feed my family for a while (perfectly acceptable) but I’m not sure I want to spend that much on a DAP really. Price seems a little crazy/inflated?

I like a warmer sound. I like bass and a bit of warmth without giving up too much detail.

Anyone have experience with the iBasso DX320 and Roon? Either as an Endpoint in your home or with ARC. I use ZeroTier to access my core out and about and invested in an unlimited data plan so I can technically use it as a normal Roon Endpoint while out and about (if ARC is playing up).

I note a few of you have mentioned the iBasso DX300 and the signature sounds right up my street.

I appreciate it won’t be able to compete with a desktop setup and it doesn’t have to. It also doesn’t be a tube DAP (SP2000T, Cayin N8iiiiiii).

Just looking for recommendations as to a quality, responsive DAP endpoint in the first instance with those traits.

Cheers!

P.S. I must say I am really impressed with the iFi GoBlu. I mean for £199! It just uses my phone (s22 Ultra) or tablet (tab s7) and I don’t have to mess about with anything else. Not that I’d wander the streets with my Meze Elite’s on but just saying it is a great, affordable solution for music on the go or wandering about the house as well. Recommended.

[Johnny_Ooooops (Listener in Chief)]

So I’m going to absolutely not answer the question, but I’m going to tell everyone what I actually do in reality, which is certainly Roon Ready, and good enough for the non-stable-desk use cases I find myself in.

For situation in which I’m going someplace to work (think shared workspace / co-working space): iPhone 12 + ARC + Fiio Q3 + either Monarch MkII’s or Campfire Audio Andromeda 2020. Sometimes I use an iPad Air 5 to drive instead, but I do hate how ARC looks on the screen.

For most “on-the-go” situations where I might need to take a call or am on the phone when I leave the house: iPhone 12 + AirPod Pro 2s

For more “on-the-go” but where I’m unlikely to take / make a call (moving around home when I can’t turn on music all over the house, walking the dog, walking to a coffee shop or doing errands, taking a train where I don’t need to hear what’s going around me / want to hear better than AirPod Pro’s): iPhone 12 + ARC + Fiio BTR3k + Dunu Titan S or CCA CRA+ (both fun, punch above their weight, inexpensive, run just fine off of 3.5mm unbalanced)

And I’m having trouble thinking how a DAP is going to take over for anything except case #1, and frankly I’m pretty happy with how the Q3 drives my better IEMs. And honestly I’m not really into closed-backs. My open headphones (ZMF Verite Open, Audeze LCD-3, HD800s, HD6xx) are not going anywhere except my office (Mjolnir 2/Folkvangr, Gungnir). So I think I’m pretty happy.

But can someone explain to me why they love DAPs? Do you have a different use case than I do?

[gTunes]

@Johnny_Ooooops

But can someone explain to me why they love DAPs? Do you have a different use case than I do?

You have a truly impressive list of lust-worthy gear and you’re able to combine it in ways that get you what you want for each of your use cases. If I were to make a case for a DAP it would be to eliminate the cables, permutations, charging, functionality, and interface differences between most of your scenarios. It would be nice to charge one thing, cable headphones with varying requirements to it, and listen to my owned collection and streamed content where I am. That includes some local storage, WiFi, and cellular. All of that with best-of-mobile-breed sound quality and amplification. Preferably competitive with many desktop systems.

It’s not a different use case. It’s just simplification and consolidation.

The combinations might be exactly what delight you. I don’t have your selection of headphones and I don’t have the expertise to dial stuff in the way I think you do. So I’m a high-end consumer, with some decent gear and a decent budget, who might want a DAP primarily for simplicity. Maybe that’s the market.

[UliR (Uli)]

My use case would also be that - in order to be able to listen to music in the best possible quality - I want to carry around as little stuff as possible. That’s why I bought the great Onkyo DAP DP-X1 once, and it and a good pair of headphones do just that. But it can’t be used properly with Roon, because there are always drop-outs and clicks, nor is it ARC-capable.
So I have to have my iPhone, a camera adapter, a DragonFly Cobalt and headphones, plus the charging cable for the iPhone, and always plug everything together. That is the sticking point. And for me, that is the reason why I would like to see more simplicity here.

[Martijn_Edelman (m E)]

No worries guys. I went for an iBasso DX320 anyway as it does appear to support Roon as an Endpoint and it also sounds like it has the perfect sound signature for me too.

All the best!

[Timothy_Federwitz (Tim Federwitz)]

@Martijn_Edelman

It also doesn’t be a tube DAP

Not sure if you saw my post about the iBasso DX300, which is identical to the DX320 in every way other than the DAC chipset simply because they couldn’t get the chips in the 300 in quantity anymore. Also, while I haven’t had the opportunity to listen to the 320 compared to the 300, I have heard the 300 is slightly warmer (maybe).

At any rate, the reason I went with the iBasso to begin with is because the Amp is modular! You can swap the amp, and the Amp cards are the same for the DX300 and DX320. AND they have a NuTube Amp card!! My point is, I loved the idea that you can modify this DAP!

In addition, I was able to find a DX300 slightly used on eBay that had the stock Amp as well as the AMP12 module, which is a Class A amp module, and then I bought the AMP13 module that has the NuTube in it, so now I have a single DAP with 3 different Amps and slightly different sound signatures.

Again, keep in mind the DX300 has the same exact CPU, RAM, Display (wonderful), storage, and Amp modules as the DX320. The DX320 is $1,600 new, with the Amp modules being $200 and $250 respectively, and I was able to get my DX300 with all three Amp modules for just under $1,000!

In addition, the DX300/320 does work decently with ARC performance wise. ARC has no option to use SD cards currently (on the roadmap I believe) and they are planning to add DSP to ARC. For downloading with ARC, it can only access the 128GB of internal storage, but that gets you quite a lot of albums/tracks. Plus, you can stream over WiFi/HotSpot. I will mention, with the NuTube amp, the WiFi causes some noise… but I believe that is the nature of Tubes (maybe I’m wrong on that, but if you play local files with WiFi off it’s perfect). Another issue with ARC specifically (for now) is that it seems to upsample everything to 24/192, which is the max the DAC is capable of, but I personally don’t notice any sonic issues because of this. This only happens with ARC, and I think it simply is looking at the “default” the DAC reports or something. Also, not unique to this DAP… happens on my Sony DAP too.

Roon as an endpoint is streaming only, and I honestly haven’t messed with it.

Finally, you can add a 1TB SD card (up to 2TB once those cards come out) and I use that for a ton of music with the local Mango Music Player app, which is solid itself.

PS - On how my “used” DX300 looks, I honestly couldn’t see anything wrong with it! It’s as if it is brand new.

[Martijn_Edelman (m E)]

Thank you for that. I went for the DX320 as it was on offer. I appreciate it’s probably not a huge upgrade from the DX300 but since I was buying a new one anyway I thought I might as well.

Glad that it works with ARC though and thank you very much for confirming this and other functionality.

All the best

[Timothy_Federwitz (Tim Federwitz)]

@Martijn_Edelman

I appreciate it’s probably not a huge upgrade from the DX300 but since I was buying a new one anyway I thought I might as well.

Agree on your logic! I was absolutely going to go with the DX320 myself, but when I found out the lack of differences, the fact that the new Amp modules still work with the 300, AND found the one I bought… I realized I was able to save a bunch of money (~$1K saved overall) with almost no drawback!

BTW, the one thing I failed to mention is that the DX300 is on an older Android OS and I don’t believe they are providing an upgrade path. Whereas the 320 is on the latest Android version. That wasn’t enough to sway me, but I made my decision before Roon released ARC. So, I think I would have maybe leaned harder towards the 320 now… just for app compatibility and future-proofing.

My original use case was always offline listening with music I own via the 1TB SD card. I own 4TB+ of 16/44.1 through 24/192 music, so it was for that. IMO the offline files sound better than streaming. Maybe it’s placebo.

[Timothy_Federwitz (Tim Federwitz)]

@Johnny_Ooooops

But can someone explain to me why they love DAPs? Do you have a different use case than I do?

Offline portable music playback… and, as @gTunes mentions, simplification around devices, cabling, etc. ONE device that rivals (can) desktop setups. I too have a pretty killer desktop setup (Yggy->Freya±>Folkvangr-or-Jotenheim-or-Vidar (with 2.1 KEF speakers and powered Sub)) and plenty of high-end headphones to connect to it… but having one device that is portable, capable of 24/192, and 1TB of swappable offline storage for my hi-res music is pretty flippin’ nice to have!

See this post I wrote about my choice of DAP. One DAP, 3 modular amps for different sound (including TUBE!). Pretty great!

If your only use case is streaming music, and you don’t mind juggling multiple devices, cables, and charging multiple things… then maybe you are good to go!

[gTunes]

@Timothy_Federwitz

Roon as an endpoint is streaming only, and I honestly haven’t messed with it.

Thanks for sharing all of this. It seems like you made a great choice and found a great deal!

Can you explain what you mean when you say that Roon, as an endpoint, is streaming only? What does that imply about what you can and can’t do with it? If you wanted to, could you use Roon (not ARC) to stream an unmodified bitstream out of the USB-C port?

[Timothy_Federwitz (Tim Federwitz)]

@gTunes

Can you explain what you mean when you say that Roon, as an endpoint, is streaming only?

Simply that the Roon app on a DAP has no method to download music files to the DAPs local storage (unless I am missing something). Because of this, you are streaming the bits over your network (WiFi or wired) to play them back. The key being you must be on the same network as your Roon server to do so.

Roon ARC gave us the ability to connect to our Roon servers outside of our local home network and stream our personally owned music files sitting on storage in our house! ARC also allows you to download those personally owned music files to a portable device (DAP, phone, tablet, etc) to be able to play them without a network connection (think airplane).

If you are only ever using Tidal or Qobuz to get to any music, then this may not be of interest to you. Those two service’s native apps both already allowed you to download offline copies to mobile phones, tablets or DAPs.

While I realize some people use Roon for only accessing music from one or both of these two services, to me the real power of Roon happens when you own the music and have it stored with your Roon server (NAS included).

[gTunes]

@Timothy_Federwitz

Simply that the Roon app on a DAP has no method to download music files to the DAPs local storage (unless I am missing something). Because of this, you are streaming the bits over your network (WiFi or wired) to play them back. The key being you must be on the same network as your Roon server to do so.

Ah…that’s what you meant by streaming…no access to local storage in any form. Thanks for clarifying.

I do fully understand and use ARC.

On a typical iOS or Android device, both the Roon and ARC apps have the drivers necessary to connect to external DACs over their respective lightning and USB-C ports. What I’m curious about is how the DX300/DX320 handles a DAC connected to the USB-C port at the top. The reason I ask about Roon, and not ARC, is that Roon can be configured to create a non-Private zone and, consequently, can take advantage of Roon features not available to ARC clients such as DSP, grouping, being controlled by other clients, etc.

This is just idea speculation on my part but I was kicking around the sort of crazy idea of using a DAP like yours in the place of a streamer in the house. Imagine just connecting it up via USB-C to a desktop DAC/Amp combo like a Schiite or Topping stack.

You might actually be able to use a splitter or hub to make it possible to charge the DAP while still allowing it to output data. Something like the image below.

I’m just kicking around ideas.

[Edit : Roon as a non-private device on an iPhone seems to only work reliably as a zone if you initiate playback from the Roon app. If it’s not playing and has been idle for a while, iOS appears to put it to sleep, which makes sense. Android may not be as aggressive about sleeping it].

[Timothy_Federwitz (Tim Federwitz)]

Using the DAP as a Roon zone/end point when not using it as a DAP on the move? Interesting idea. Certainly wouldn’t make sense to buy a DAP for only that use case though. Why not a small Raspberry Pi for that? Use your Phone or tablet as the remote UI for Roon.

I haven’t tried what you are suggesting. It does have a USB-C out, and I believe you could hook up an external DAC… but no idea if it would work like you are suggesting. It also has a coax out (again, I believe) that could work like this possibly. So, USB-C for power, coax to DAC, Roon UI on DAP or possibly through remote UI. But that is all theory.