Thoughts about other posters, bugs and design

Roon Community Site
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That is absolutely correct. The absurd aspect of many of the posts here is that they defend Roon, calling everything an innocent and unintentional bug, even when Roon executives make a clear distinction between what is a bug versus what is not.

The way that the photo randomly changes on the Artist Detail page (sometimes it is in a box, and sometimes the entire photo is behind the text, depending on whether you click on various random links) is a clear bug, and Roon said so. That was unintentional.

But the decision to drop large album art on the Now Playing page has nothing to do with a bug, and is a clear design choice. The decision to have nothing but a large black box for music that lacks a photo, artist bio or album info was also deliberate, just as how the photos appeared on the Now Playing page was clearly intentional. It had to be intentional, since the Roon team could turn on their own Radio feature, using different artists, genres and time periods, rapidly click through a wide range of albums, and look at the severely cropped and frequently headless results before they released version 1.6. And the black boxes for any music lacking anything to put in the black box, once the album cover was eliminated. It is rather difficult to believe that they did not do that.

I’m only hoping that the designers will realize that we don’t need both a thumbnail in the lower left, and a large album cover above it. The common sense decision will be to eliminate the thumbnail on that particular page or view, move everything as far down the page as practical (such as the row of icons) and thereby leave as much room as possible for the largest possible illustration of the album cover. We hardly need both a thumbnail and an album cover on the same page or view. That would be the software equivalent of a complete oxymoron.

Some of the folks on this forum defend Roon no matter what it does, and under all circumstances. Just read the posts carefully and you’ll spot those whose posts should be ignored as they will defend Roon until the end of time. But by far the most amusing posts are from the self-proclaimed software engineers and designers, who attack anyone who dares suggest that some of the design choices were rather poorly conceived. They are often the first to call absolutely all dumb design choices innocent software “bugs.” I guess it is the cabal of software designers who must defend each other against mere consumers who pay for the software but dare criticize the product.

Oh, and for the perpetual defenders of Roon, who attack anyone who dares criticize this software, I signed up for a Lifetime subscription when 1.6 came out based on integration with Qobuz. I’ve also defended Roon, even to the point of calling it “fabulous” in a thread that I started.

Like Charles, I’m hoping that see a better balance for overall user design, and Roon can once again deserve the description that I applied and originated, in the thread “Why Roon is fabulous, with or without Tidal.”

As to when all of this will happen, I always assumed it would take at least 45 to 60 days. Roon is not known for being quick when it comes to software releases. The notes on the new features of 1.6 were posted 27 days ago as of the date I’m posting this. So we all might as well be patient. I’d be delighted to be proven wrong on that, however.

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Hi Alan,

Mods have shifted this post from the 1.6 Feedback thread into its own thread because it is mainly about other posters and the difference between bugs and design choices.

We are taking a stricter view of off-topic discussion in the 1.6 Feedback thread as diversion into other discussions obscures the feedback. Posts about other posters are particularly likely to result in such diversion.

Paragraph 4 of your post (commencing "I’m only hoping …) and paragraphs 7 and 8 are feedback, and you are welcome to post them back into the feedback thread.

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Must be reading on a different forum than I am!

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I don’t think that’s true. Both beauty AND ugliness are in the eye of the beholder…

@allan2, I’m pretty sure you’d convince more people of your arguments if your tone were less aggressive/reproachful. Just thoughts…

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To the various moderators who have taken the actions covered below in the last several weeks:

This is little more than aggressive and heavy handed editing of views you disapprove of. As demonstrated by your explicit instructions as to which precise paragraphs can be posted, and in which thread.

More specifically, the way you are executing this new policy is blatantly hypocritical and unbalanced.

To clarify, the issue covered below does not concern when you create or move threads for sensible reasons, to better organize the forum. Quite the contrary, the issue is when specific comments that you disapprove of are removed, then arbitrarily dumped in a new thread in an entirely different part of the forum, and that is accompanied by heavy handed editing.

Case in point: there are dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in the feedback thread that defend Roon on the basis that everything that is wrong are unintentional bugs. Those posts argue that because they are unintentional bugs, no one should be criticizing the management of Roon. I was responding to those comments.

You have NOT moved or touched those comments. You leave those comments alone, presumably because they defend Roon. How convenient.

Specifically, you only move the comments you disapprove of to a different thread, in an entirely different part of the forum, while leaving the comments you approve of in the original thread.

And then you dictate which precise paragraphs I can repost in the original thread. Talk about heavy handed editing.

And also when entire threads are shut down. That included closing an entire thread on how soon we will see a release of a version only with album covers. This was a reasonable question, and deserved a simple response but you didn’t answer because you didn’t want to answer. So you shut down the entire thread about two weeks ago, rather than to answer a simple question.

That decision on your part was deliciously ironic, when viewed in hindsight, two weeks later.

And that decision is part of a pattern.

There will be the usual posts below this, by the Perpetual Defenders of Roon, who will attack me and defend the moderators. I would only give them fair warning that what the moderators have done to some of us today, they can do to you tomorrow. Arbitrarily shut down threads on how soon we will see a new version that would only fix album covers; closing threads on folder browsing; and now, moving around comments they disapprove of, and dictating which paragraphs can be included in which thread.

Heavy handed editing is a slippery slope. You may be next.

Probably. But I post in this forum less and less because I’m tired of the unbalanced and strident defense of Roon by a minority, regardless of how dumb the design decisions are. And some were really dumb, as Roon either knew what they were doing, or they must have done almost no testing prior to release. One or the other.

But you are correct, in reacting to those who defend Roon at all costs, I probably sound like the flip side of the same coin, so to speak.

So your point is well taken.

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Not surprisingly, I’m going to chuck my 2 eurocents in:

Some of my posts have been edited by mods, one of them to the point of me sounding pleased with the product. Which incidentally I am not… For the time being.

I am not going to rehash my gripes. They are well known and specific.

One observation though, I was told (I paraphrase now) that I and a few others generated to much noise which “polluted” the thread.

Maybe, maybe not. Anyhow, I’m not too bothered. Either Roon shapes up or it doesn’t. Either I renew or I don’t. First world problems.

What I do observe though is that in the recent feedback threads only the negative noise is removed. All the gushing comments that DO NOT CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING OF VALUE are still left in.

Feedback threads are supposed to address the positive and the negative of the changes.

Following the recently applied forum logic, all posts in feedback threads in the vein of “I luuuuuurve Roon” should also be removed and dumped in a separate thread, because they also pollute these threads far past the point of readability.

Fair’s fair: if the mods and the staff want to clean threads, they should clean them evenhandedly. Otherwise prospective new customers who browse this forum might think Roon is all Unicorns and rainbows and that would be dishonest.

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More to the point - Roon is not freeware or shareware but subscription based software that the end user has to pay for. When I pay for something I expect to get something in return for my money. And while Roon does deliver on that expectation they also claim to be constantly looking for ways to improve Roon and enhance the overall user experience. Deleting or censoring negative feedback is not the way to do this.

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Well said.

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The pinned thread at the top of this category sets out some general matters for users who are unhappy about moderation. If you think we have gone off the rails, or believe the policies we are applying are inappropriate, then a PM to Mike is a way to take it further.

In relation to the feedback thread, posts that say “I love 1.6” or “I hate 1.6” and set out reasons why are feedback. Posts that discuss other users are not feedback. If you see such posts in the feedback thread please flag them.

Edit: Just to be clear, there has been a change in moderation policy regarding the feedback thread, so a perception that we have let things go in the past that we are now acting on may well be correct. We are intending to be tighter about off topic discussion in the feedback thread and will be more frequently shifting such discussion into its own threads. Many other posts have now been shifted out of the general feedback thread.

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Just do it in a fair and even handed way. Not a grossly hypocritical way as was the case today.

Go back and read your specific instructions on what you would allow and would not allow to be reposted. Paragraphs 2 and 3 of my original post were an explanation of what a bug really is, as well a direct criticism of your design choices – and not of other users – and you censored it by dumping it here and then explicitly said that it could not be reposted. It is not a coincidence that you censored the sharpest criticism of the design decisions, and then ungraciously allowed me to only repost my mildest comments. Your heavy handed editing reveals your real motive and it is one of pseudo-censorship.

That is little more than disguised censorship, plain and simple.

You now justify this by saying it is about attacking other users. Where in paragraphs 2 & 3, that you dumped here and then said could not be reposted in the main thread – where did I criticize or even reference another user? Your rationalization for your policy is entirely hollow, and not supported by the facts.

And as I noted, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of posts in the feedback thread that defend Roon on the basis that everything is an unintentional bugs, so no one should be criticizing the management of Roon. I was responding to those comments.

You have NOT moved or touched those comments. You leave those comments alone, presumably because they defend Roon. How convenient.

In addition, my other comments about users were entirely generic and bland and not aimed at anyone specific. My comments might have been a bit sarcastic about broad categories of some who post, but did not come even close to referencing anyone specific. You expect anyone to believe that those comments justify heavy handed editing under this new policy?

It is not my vague comments about general classes of users that triggered this.

There are some notorious users who attack anyone who dares to criticize Roon. But you already know that. How about addressing that?

If ever I have been a sharp critic of any of the policies of Roon, it is what is occurring here. This form of psudeo-censorship, moving around posts you don’t like, and actually dictating that the most mild of my comments can be reposted, but my sharpest criticism of your design choices can not be reposted – that speaks for itself.

How about no longer shutting down threads that ask when you will come out with a release to only restore album covers? I didn’t share that person’s impatience, but it was a legitimate thread. You could have just let it run it’s course instead of completely shutting it down, i.e. censoring the discussion.

You can make it sound like this is a even handed policy, but the results speak to the contrary.

Censorship and heavy handed editing are a slippery slope, and your last set of comments that attempt to justify it only make that point all the more clearly.

What is applied to one Roon user today will be applied to others in the future.

And if ever there was a self-inflicted wound, this is it. The heavy handed actions of the moderators in recent weeks did this to themselves.

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Moderators are not Roon staff. We are volunteer users. I do it because my analyst told me I needed more abuse directed my way. It’s working out well.

We do this a lot and want to know about it. Roon have told us to watch for it, and we do. If you see it, flag it.

As I’ve said, if you are unhappy about moderation, take it up with Mike. Posting here isn’t going to change the policies we are applying.

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:joy: :rofl:

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Next up will be unlisting this topic so it slowly gets forgotten…