Time to buy Nucleus; three quick questions, please

[Boris_Molodyi]

@Mark_Sealey

If I could just connect the Nucleus from the iMac via Ethernet and then to the P6, I would.

But I can’t, can I.

Uh, you absolutely can! Just take iMac’s USB output and plug it into the P6.

@Mark_Sealey

which means it would, in fact be better, to site both Nucleus and Zen local to my computer bench with as short as 1ft Cat 6 BJC Ethernet for each:

• Airport Ethernet to Nucleus
• Airport Ethernet to Zen

And then run a high quality coax (25 feet) from the streamer across the roon to the P6?

No, quite the opposite. First of all, why would you want to be using coax at all? It is 1980’s tech, its quite limited in resolution it supports, and I am not sure if 25 feet coax cable run would even work. It’s almost 2024. Unless one of the devices is broken, there’s no reason to use anything other than USB.

What you want to do it run a decent (and I will repeat, a cheapest cable from Office Depot would work just as well) Cat 6 cable from the router to “whatever you use as a streamer” which could be either Zen or iMac or anything else. Cat 6 is certified to work at full speed at significantly longer distances (and no, there is no sonic difference between different categories, cable brands, etc.etc.) so this should be determined solely by where it is most convenient to locate. Then run a “decent” (again, something from Office Depot will work just fine) from the streamer to P6.

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

@Mark_Sealey

If I could just connect the Nucleus from the iMac via Ethernet and then to the P6, I would.

But I can’t, can I.

The perils of duplicated threads…

@Suedkiez

@Mark_Sealey

And that can’t be the DAC of a preamp like the ParaSound Halo P6, by itself?

Only by USB because USB and Coax/Optical are apparently the only inputs it accepts. The linked website doesn’t even say that it has a network input, much less being Roon Ready.

The iMac and the Nucleus would both be on the network. The P6 would be connected by USB to the Nucleus. It’s an option.

Regarding the coax and USB, I concur with @Boris_Molodyi as already said on the other thread:

@Suedkiez

@Mark_Sealey

I’m aware that USB was never intended to carry audio; so am determined to get something better.

Roon recommends using a networked streamer.

If using a direct connection, there’s nothing that’s better in any meaningful way than a well implemented USB interface.

It’s true that USB wasn’t designed to carry audio because there is no audio to carry at this stage. It’s carrying digital data, which really is nothing but a long string of very large numbers. Audio only comes into play at the analog side of the DAC, which is well isolated in any competent design.

You can’t connect the P6 to the Nucleus by Coax because the Nucleus doesn’t have a Coax output. But there’s no reason why you would want to.

[Mark_Sealey]

@Suedkiez, @Boris_Molodyi

@Suedkiez

The perils of duplicated threads…

Yes indeed. My fault entirely! Apologies with a fair smattering of gratitude.

As you can see, I’m keen to learn. And am grateful for your patience. But I am still relatively confused .

I was told (offline/not here) by someone whose opinion I value highly that USB is not a good means to transfer digital audio from computer to stereo. Hence my wish to eliminate USB for my music.

I was also told by the same person that I already have the best DAC I can - that of the P6, which I propose to hang onto. But the P6 only has USB (see above), Coax and Optical digital inputs.

The iFi Zen Stream (not iFi Zen Stream DAC, see above) has an Ethernet output. But not USB, Coax or Optical.

Dare I ask for further guidance to put the (obviously) fairly basic misconceptions that I’m still lumbering under right, please?

Is this any closer:

[DaveN]

@Mark_Sealey

I was told (offline/not here) by someone whose opinion I value highly that USB is not a good means to transfer digital audio from computer to stereo. Hence my wish to eliminate USB for my music.

If you have a very noisy computer, and a lousy DAC, then maybe some noise would be transmitted via a USB cable, but this is a) by no means a certainty, and b) even if it was the case, it’s arguable that any such noise would be undetectable.

That aside, Roon does recommend that you separate your endpoints from your server when possible.

@Mark_Sealey

The iFi Zen Stream (not iFi Zen Stream DAC, see above) has an Ethernet output. But not USB, Coax or Optical.

I may be missing something, but this would seem to suggest that there is a USB out (taken from this page):

As such (and assuming I’ve not missed something) I’d suggest ethernet to the wifi Zen Stream then USB to the ParaSound P6.

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

@Mark_Sealey

I was told (offline/not here) by someone whose opinion I value highly that USB is not a good means to transfer digital audio from computer to stereo. Hence my wish to eliminate USB for my music.

I don’t know who you talked to, and no offense, but I was told online that the earth is flat and offline that the Covid vaccination has all kinds of bad effects of which the ability to magnetically attract spoons is the least worry.

Did this person give you any hard technical reasoning why this would be the case? “USB was not developed for audio” does not count because a) as mentioned there is no audio at this point just large numbers, and b) was Coax developed for audio? I doubt it (edit: S/PDIF was, but not digital coax as such). Coax is technically clearly inferior though.

My point, in case it is not clear, just because someone says something does not make it true, even if you value the person’s opinion generally. Someone can be right in some things and wrong in others. Especially in “audiophile” audio. I valued the opinion of A.J. van den Hul on phono cartridges, but the van den Hul company sells a device that they claim improves sound by “communicating directly with the brain” and not by emitting any sounds. I don’t value that; gotta live with it.

You have these options:

• Forget about the USB myth and connect the P6 to the Nucleus by USB.
• Get a streamer, connect it to Roon over the network, and connect it to the P6 any way you want as far as connectors allow. But there are also people who claim (wrongly) that ethernet transmission changes the audio, so what now, do we believe them as well? We’ll never get to listening to music if this goes on

[Jim_F]

Paralysis by analysis. Order your Nucleus already.

[Boris_Molodyi]

@Mark_Sealey

I was told (offline/not here) by someone whose opinion I value highly that USB is not a good means to transfer digital audio from computer to stereo. Hence my wish to eliminate USB for my music.

I am afraid you were misinformed. The only way USB could be worse if the DAC has a very bad internal clock (coax uses the source clock, USB uses the clock in the DAC) but that should not be the case with your P6.

@Mark_Sealey

The iFi Zen Stream (not iFi Zen Stream DAC, see above) has an Ethernet output. But not USB, Coax or Optical.

No, as @DaveN pointed out, Zen Stream has an ethernet input and USB and coax outputs (if it had only ethernet it would not be useful for anything )

Your latest diagram looks fine, but I woukld use USB for the connection. It is also the only way to use the full potential of the DAC. Coax, being obsolete technology that’s 40 years old is severely limited in the resolution it supports, while USB can move high resolution music up to (and above) what your DAC can do. Not that one could necessarily hear any difference above 24/192 that coax does support, but if you do have or will get any higher resolution files, with coax you will have to downsample them.

To summarize. The cheapest way of connecting what you already have:

• Plug P6 into Nucleus with a USB cable, if the placement works
• Plug the P6 into iMac with a USB cable, if the placement works.

These two options will give you the same sound quality, pick the one that is more convenient based on where you can place all the devices. Of course, if you are using iMacc heavily for other purposes it might somewhat interfere with also using it for playback…

Next simplest option is using something like Zen Stream (there are other options as well, of course, but it is fine, and reasonably priced for a plug and play device).

Note that it does have WiFi built in, so if your WiFi works well enough you may not even need to run ethernet to it. Roon rightly recommends having the core itself (i.e. Nucleus) on a wired connection, but both remotes (iMac etc.) and endpoints (iFi) could be on WiFi as long as it works well enough. Proper cable is better, of course, for reliability, but not strictly necessary WiFi speed should be quite sufficient.

Yet another option, if you have some spare laptop or similar that you do not need, is to connect that laptop to Nucleus (again, WiFi or ethernet, whatever’s easier) and connect laptop to Parasound with USB. Sound, again, will be the same (barring laptop’s USB port being broken) and you get a nice Roon display and extra remote as well…

[Mark_Sealey]

@DaveN

Thanks. A big step forward (for me)

@DaveN

…and assuming I’ve not missed something…

No; that’s my job! Sorry I’m the one who struggles and doubles back on themself.

…I’d suggest ethernet to the wifi Zen Stream then USB to the ParaSound P6.…
… this would seem to suggest that there is a USB out…

Yes. For some reason, I’d not completely associated that USB port (what is implied by ‘ANC’, please) with an actual output. I can certainly do that.
[/quote]

[DaveN]

@Mark_Sealey

what is implied by ‘ANC’, please

In this context, I’m not entirely sure. According to their webpage:

And when you click on the little ‘i’:

I understand how this works with sound - ANC headphones have been around for a while - but I’m not sure how or if it applies to a digital signal, and even if it does I strongly suspect it’s not necessary. I would think that it’s probably more of a marketing gimmick than a necessary feature.

[Mark_Sealey]

Mario,

@Suedkiez

@Mark_Sealey

I was told…

I don’t know who you talked to, and no offense, but I was told online that the earth is flat

Drat. Another set of scales falls from my eyes !

Thanks. Point taken.

Did this person give you any hard technical reasoning why this would be the case? “USB was not developed for audio”

Yes - precisely. That one. Drop outs etc. I never experience drop outs. Could it be that it’s because he is on Windows and I Mac?

Coax is technically clearly inferior though.

Another point the opposite of which I have heard. Thanks for the correction, Mario!

My point, in case it is not clear

Never! Always crystal, thanks

You have these options:

• Forget about the USB myth and connect the P6 to the Nucleus by USB.

That’s certainly the simplest, isn’t it.
It’d be this, wouldn’t it:

• Get a streamer, connect it to Roon over the network, and connect it to the P6 any way you want as far as connectors allow.

Which could be this, couldn’t it?

But there are also people who claim (wrongly) that ethernet transmission changes the audio, so what now, do we believe them as well? We’ll never get to listening to music if this goes on

Again, point taken

[Mark_Sealey]

If I’m lucky enough to continue to get this level of support from the good people here, I’ll one day be as confident as you are - with that massive layout of yours.’

And I’ll surely wonder why I ever had to ask all these questions

Thanks!

@Jim_F

Paralysis by analysis. Order your Nucleus already.

[DaveN]

What’s the purpose of the USB link between your Nucleus and iMac?

[GregD (Greg Dowling)]

There has been considerable debate about direct nucleus connection vs streamer connections.

I ended up following Roon’s advice here:-

Sound Quality

As a diy Rock builder I used the slightly diy Ropieee, but expect this isn’t the right trade off for you!

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

@Mark_Sealey

Yes - precisely. That one. Drop outs etc. I never experience drop outs. Could it be that it’s because he is on Windows and I Mac?

Sounds like a broken USB cable or a very bad USB implementation. When did they make this experience, 20 years ago? USB is capable of many times the speed that’s needed for even hi-res audio and any half decent devices should be able to actually deliver that

[Mark_Sealey]

Once again, Boris - many many thanks

@Boris_Molodyi

@Mark_Sealey

…I was told…

I am afraid you were misinformed.

USB it is.

I think I know what your answer will be to this next question, please: is any one USB cable make better than any other for this purposes? Currently I have to run one with this ‘signal booster’ to get the 25 feet from my iMac USB hub to my P6 digital USB input.

…Zen Stream has …USB…outputs

USB it is!

…the full potential of the DAC. Coax, being obsolete technology that’s 40 years old is severely limited in the resolution it supports…

I can now see how that would be a definite move in the wrong direction.

To summarize. The cheapest way of connecting what you already have:

• Plug P6 into Nucleus with a USB cable, if the placement works
• Plug the P6 into iMac with a USB cable, if the placement works.

Yes. Both do. Very well.

…if you are using iMacc heavily for other purposes it might somewhat interfere with also using it for playback…

I am and I want to avoid that - particularly as I increase the size of my library.

Next simplest option is using something like Zen Stream

In which case it’d be (back to) this, would’t it?

(there are other options as well, of course, but it is fine, and reasonably priced for a plug and play device).

From a purely sonic/audio point of view and with the hardware and setup for which I may want to use one, which are good ones, please? Again, No DAC needed and obviously Roon-ready.

(I have to duck here - but, honestly, until I’ve seen it in action, I still don’t understand exactly what (such a streamer) does in such a configuration that Roon doesn’t do. No interest in duplication.

[GregD (Greg Dowling)]

Prior to using Roon, for my most critical zone I streamed to a USB DAC from iTunes on my Mac.I did this for many years - and some iterations of Mac OS and iTunes would produce occasional drop outs.

I’m sure it was some type of OS/software buffer under flow issue - although agree it shouldn’t have happened!

[Mark_Sealey]

As I say, it may be because he’s on Windows. Recently.

Neither RoonLabs nor iFi would provide USB connectivity if it were faulty, would they. Thanks!

[Mark_Sealey]

I’ve heard nothing but good about Focal. I nearly got a pair when I went for Sennheiser HD 800 S instead.

@Jim_F

Focal Clear

[Suedkiez (Just a fellow user like you)]

Buffer underflows could happen if the computer isn’t up to the task, but shouldn’t as you say - was this long ago?

But in this case it wouldn’t be the fault of USB as such and it could fail to deliver the data by S/PDIF, for instance, just as well

@Mark_Sealey

As I say, it may be because he’s on Windows. Recently.

It really shouldn’t

[Mark_Sealey]

Of course, Dave! Sorry. Yes, Noise Cancellation.

The important thing, though, is that it has the requisite USB port; USB is now my friend again