Fair warning…our target market is customers that use Roon and want to stream audio to a Roon Ready device.
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I’m going to go through Victor Martell’s posts and critique his critique, but let’s just call it helping him with his “research”.
First some background. The Rendu series was developed to replace a desktop/laptop in the audio room. I don’t need/want a standard computer in the audio room and I don’t need/want to maintain the OS in that computer just to pass streaming content to my DAC. What I do want/need is an appliance passing an audio stream to my DAC. The Rendu series in not meant to be a DIY project…these are finished products with support. The Rendu series is meant to be plug and play, small and out of the way.
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The Rendu series can be connected to UAC Class 1 and Class 2 devices. UAC stands for USB Audio Class. To your point below USB Audio is data, but it is not a printer port in this application.
There is really nothing to hide. In fact, I’m here in a public forum for the sole purpose of giving information so people know what they are buying.
We do not claim the Rendu series is a DAC.
Full disclosure no Raspberry Pi were killed in the development of this project. Considering how many Pi have been sold and how successful that project is I’m honored to be compared to them. However, there are many differences starting with the fact that the Rendu series is not based on a Pi. The Rendu series is based on a SolidRun SOM with a custom designed/built daughter board with power and I/O ports.
It’s interesting that you now provide a link to a competitors product one that has a port called “USB Cleaner” And yet as controversial titles go you have no objection to this. This seems to indicate some bias on your part.
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So noise is not important…rem these devices are hardwired to your DAC. The USB cable carries with it data/power and most DACs use the power coming from the Rendu. Some devices use the power for the USB receiver and some use the power for the USB receiver and the analog conversion stage.
Bits are bits though and make no mistake we are not changing them. I have to state that because other have suggested that we are mysteriously applying digital signal processing (filters) to the stream. I’m happy to say we are just a pass through device and if you want to apply various filter you can do so with your server.
You can connect a USB storage drive and turn the Rendu into a server since it also has Logitech Media Server software built in. You can load the application to make this possible in Apps/Software Manager. I’m not certain who you are protecting and why you think you need to protect them, but keep in mind this is an audio forum after all.
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No, what I think that the OP asks (and it’s a fair question) is whether or not have you measured any difference in the DAC’s output when connected to the UR versus when it’s connected to a PC.
In other words, is the UR just a convinient passthrough device with not added benefits in the SQ, or do you claim that it also provides with a better SQ. And if so, do you have data to support that claim?
That was not that ask.
Anyway, it’s trivial to show that the connected device, be it a PC or a Rendu, can influence the output of a DAC. Let’s not pick on a desktop/laptop because these generally have fixed power supplies. It’s trivial to show that different power supplies connected to a Rendu can influence the output of a DAC. Some DACs more than others and some outputs on the DAC more than others. So to that end we try to be a clean source and our design choices are part of that. I have an AP analyzer here and I have plenty of data. As a check and balance, I had an industry friend (an industry icon unrelated to Sonore and the Rendu series of projects) measure a microRendu with his very very low noise floor DAC on his AP analyzer and he confirmed as much. IMHO lower noise floor equals better SQ so use a good PS regardless of what endpoint you use.
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It would be nice to see data like this because, as you may know, there are people (cough, cough, Amir) who claim that decent DACs filter the input anyway so it wouldn’t matter.
Would you care to show some data confirming that decent DACs output different signals based on whether they were connected to an UR or a Raspberry PI, for example?
Been there, done that, and I promise you it will not provide any closure. He is not wrong about the DACs, but this not about filtering because the noise just sails right in through the ground. Depending on the connections and the PS you can emphasize or de-emphasize the results. This is about avoiding the noise in the first place.
I don’t care if people use a uR or a Raspberry PI…they should enjoy what they have.
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I have strong disagreements about people using our products as a launching pad for criticism yet they don’t seem to critique $20,000 music servers that claim all kinds of nonsense. I personally don’t like the Pi for USB Audio, because some (I don’t know about the current design) use a common bus for USB and network. We have a separate bus for each because I think that is better. There are other reasons I think it’s better, but decide for yourself.
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I started posting measurements on AS and it got controversal pretty fast:) The approach was wrong for that forum because it attacked opinions of certain members. I was calling BS on certain people for claiming massive improvements. These are people who are protected by the admin and empowered by their veto powers on their threads so your can’t have an honest discussion. Subjectivists and objectives are on opposite sides of a continental divide and the arguments always get out of hand. I took the posts down and I’m not going down that path again. If everything I say needs third party verification then don’t listen to what I say.
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You would be surprised what we agree on, but I was not referring to you.
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Just to make myself clear: I do own an UR and I’m very satisfied by its ease of use and performance. Also, I’ve just ordered a Paul Hynes SR4T PS to power it so I wouldn’t take any risk, but still, I was wondering if there were any measurments available showing the diferences.
Anyway, thanks for the answers!
And here I opened up this link thinking this was a discussion of alternatives to the UltraRendu…
I have been a happy URowner for years, looking to see if there was an alternative other than say, an SOTM Ultra? IMHO, in audio, everything is not measurable, not all stereo systems are the same. Quality of manufacturing, quality of components and design of each and every piece all contribute to the end result. It’s all what sounds best to you, each piece introduces a contributing factor. HQplayer made me a big believer after trying it out too. Swapping components out of my DAC for more precise ones have added then some.
Everyone’s ears and environments are different. Some are listening to Roon through a set of headphones on a $1000 rig, some have more or less elaborate systems. I never understood the basis of discussions/arguments over measurements solely. Measurements are useful in the decision making process but my ears are ultimately the deciding factor.
Being a buyer of the UR, I purchased it back in the day when I had no clue of computer audio. I was streaming through my Oppo BDP105D. The UR sounded better and was simple to setup. I’d still by it today for it’s simplistic approach to incorporating HQplayer as an NAA or using it plug and play with Roon. The average Joe doesn’t even know what a Rasberry Pi is and isn’t concerned about measurements per se. I am not versed on the Pi but I assume there is no phone number for this and it’s more of a platform for someone with a much higher skill set?
Some want something simple, plug and play with customer support. I tip my hat to the Sonore team for that piece particularly. Andrew/Jesus have answered emails from me at all times of the day, their customer service is awesome and second to none. Their stuff just works and sounds great in my setup. If someone wants to send me a Pi with some instructions, I’d be happy to A/B them as well.
Isn’t that what happens with every audio piece we add or replace. Something simply sounds better be it fact or fiction to our own ears?
I read a bit on AS but I refuse to post there. That site is phenomenal for factual data only and a reference point to what looks good on paper. Seems like anyone who states they like something that doesn’t measure well is condemned and shamed. “Audio Science” is an appropriate name for the forum. “Audiophile” it is not. I go to the Audiophile Style website for that kind of information, bounces between the two and then here to gather some data. What I find most useful is picking the brains of people with similar setups. Some like McIntosh sound, some like B&W speakers, some like Klipsch. I like the B&W/Mc sound, always have. That group has the best reference point for me, it isn’t something to be found on paper.
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Jesus is talking about Audiophile Style (AS), not Audio Science Review (ASR).
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I wonder how many times we need to have these arguments? If you think it might help, buy one and give it a try. If it makes no difference, return it. I use a RPi4 running RoPieeeXL. That works for my 73 year old tinnitus ears.
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These were unsolicited comments from someone with an agenda to save and protect people. The admin here changed the title with the original being a critique about my product and not about alternatives. I responded to each of his comments as that is my right in this forum.
Why are you responding to me in this way? I said nothing to you or anyone else other than stop the argument and give it a try.
I’m just documenting that this was not really an “alternatives” post.
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