And now that we’ve gotten to the point of “you have to buy a tube distortion factory” and “if it costs less then thousands of dollars per channel it’s crap” point, we’re probably done 
4 Likes
And for those who believe in real, measurable data, there’s a rather interesting ASR review for the US version of the unit here. It’s not terrible but external power amps would help.
1 Like
Have you researched RooUPNP? Then you probably can use roon/tidal/qobuz lossless without buying any new gear… works with my Marantz SR5014 
Thanks all that responded to my post, I really have a lot of options now. Some will make me a bit poorer - - - I’ll have to discuss this with my financial controller (aka my wife).
My Denon came after a (worse) Yamaha receiver broke down. This was adequate to drive B&W CMD NT-9’s. I realize that my amp has its limits with the B&W 804D4 but so does my wallet.
I didn’t mention it but my speakers are also used for TV sound, so any future amp will need an HDMI input at least for that. The McIntosh & and others have that, I’ve had several listening sessions with the brand and that’s where my savings will go to (but not ‘real soon’).
If I change the system, I’l show it off !!!
1 Like
It seems you need an AV receiver for TV, and since you have one of the better AV receivers, it makes more sense to keep it.
Good move. Bi-amp your front left and right if you have the channels.
The suggestions above are good but really lead towards a separate two channel system in the future if you wanted. What a great hobby, am I right! 
Hi, I also use my 2-channel Amp/Speakers for A/V, by using a Home Theatre bypass on the input from an A/V Pre-amp. This undertakes any DD/DTS audio processing from the TV STB, Apple TV, DVD player, ChromeCast etc. media sources.
The AV Pre-amp then has separate line-level outputs for Front L/R, Rear L/R, Centre and Subwoofer.
I have separate 3-channel Amp for Read L/R and Centre speakers, and Subwoofer.
This means I preserve a 2-channel system for Music, then use the 2-channel in a multi-channel system for A/V.
A/V Pre-Amp is a Tag McLaren AV-32R from a number of years ago, which has the 5.1 support for DD/DTS with THX etc. Later versions have 7.1 support as well as 5.1 Bypass.
1 Like
I bet you are one of the guys that tries to measure soundstage and depth. Nope it’s not measurable 
Thanks @CrystalGipsy for this RHEOS idea. I needed a few tries to install the Roon Extension Manager on my Synology (hint: use the manual install from SSH), but once this worked, installing the RHEOS extension was a breeze. There sure are few tech gurus in the Roon community!!
So thanks @peter_richardson and @patrick_mccarthy !
1 Like
Who would have thought, nonexistent things aren’t measurable!
3 Likes
- its all @peter_richardson I am just coming along for the ride…
@Danny_Smalle , regarding using the extension manager: do you use anything else in the extension manager? I haven’t come back to trying it because I don’t recall seeing anything else I would use - curious if other items are of value and I am missing out 
Patrick
“Soundstage and depth” are a psychoacoustic phenomenon, that depends, by orders of magnitude, on the soundfield created in the recording/listening environment.
With the majority of speaker systems and listening environments, even small head movements effect large changes in perceived sound stage, demonstrating the overwhelming contribution.
2 Likes
While installing the RHEOS extension I had a look at other available extensions. In the Remote Control category I saw “Deep Harmony” which is something to look at if I ever want to replace the jungle of remotes by one. Not planned yet.
Nothing in the other categories seemed interesting.
If you already have a harmony it’s great if not good luck finding one as they have been discontinued.
I feel sorry for people who follow a cult of cheaply and poorly designed and produced devices which a cult leader brainwashes in their forums. These are cheaply produced and just trimmed to have “good measurements” but in fact sound flat and lifeless, many times costing more than thousand for an almost empty box of “top measurements” . Just like flat earth believers they tend to have no comparison and experience and believe theory and blindly follow people in forums that have never heard a high end system. Make purchases based on that instead listen to their ears. Not every amp that has similar measurements sound the same. Not every amp and preamp combination can present the same amount of information.
Use your own ears!!
Fun fact: with a high resolving system every part in the chain has great effect. balanced cables and power cords can make a huge difference and show the potential what an preamp amp can do or not for example. Sometimes with the right cables you already have a “component upgrade” for less than a new device.
Back to the thread: Rotel Michi products match the B&W excellent. Use class A/B minimum or class A. Most Class D products tent to sound sterile and lifeless (my experience). I listened to the 804 D3 and 802 D3 with McIntosh, accuphase and Michi amps. Class A sounded very organic and if you are a fan of voices and details that are shown very lifelike take this into consideration. Michi Rotel has great p/l their components tend to sound darker but that matches the tweeter very well as 80x B&Ws tend to sound very sterile if combined with class D amplification. McIntosh fits also good very bold and muscular sound more forward sounding with smaller soundstage and a “flatter” experience but very well for rock and powerful music. Less dynamic and fast than Michi Rotel but with a sound signature you have to decide if you like it. Luxman is a pretty less known brand but it’s the most musical out of the bunch with an very airy sound and top soundstage. Instruments are extremely lifelike and have a certain finesse. Go try different combinations on those speakers you will find something that you like for sure (also for less money if budget is tight) everything should be matched and in relation pricewise
Can’t agree on your Class D musings. Having moved from Class A/B Naim to Class D NAD it looses nothing to my ProAcs if anything it’s improved things and in no way sterile. Similar in a lot of ways but overall it drives them better feels less forward which is what Naim are famous for and something I grew to not appreciate. Having the extra current on tap seems to have helped.
Personally I need more than digtal inputs so a preamp or in my case combi amp are required. Go with what works best for you. In the ends it’s what you like the sound of most and what gives you the flexibility you need and can live with in your environment.
3 Likes
If you’re happy with the speakers, that’s the main thing. The next upgrade should be either the amp or DAC. A simple first step could be a high quality power amp. AVR’s tend to compromise in this area. Check out options from Emotiva, Parasound or Schiit Audio. How much improvement you hear depends on how difficult a load the speakers are. You can use the pre outputs from your Denon to feed it. Next, get a good DAC. Others may insist the DAC should come first, but that is a more complicated upgrade path for you. If HDMI is the only output option on your Google Chromecast (likely) then you’ll need either a DAC that can accept it (NAD used to make one) or an HDMI audio de-embeder. My advice would be also get another Raspberry Pi and a HAT for it that outputs spdif, and save the Google for video sources. But Pi’s are hard to come by these days.
I’m unfamiliar with Chromecast but I’ve had several generations of Roku and Apple TV streamers. Originally they had HDMI, spdif and analog outputs then, gradually, the non-HDMI options went away, and the boxes got smaller.
I feel really sorry for people who do not know how electricity works but have been brainwashed into believing that spending thousands of dollars on power cables and fuses will give them a “highly resolving” system. Of course these people usually either have never heard a system that reproduces sound accurately, or would not even hear the difference in the first place…
I listen to everything I buy. I also know how to read measurements and how psychics work. If a Cardas, or Fraudioquest, or any other power cable “does magic” it just means that you are highly suggestible. Nothing personal there, it’s just how laws of nature are. The only magic is in the music, electric oscillations have been understood for a very long time, and anything you can hear can be measured, to a few orders of magnitude higher precision than anything you could notice (even if you won’t necessarily find those measurements on ASR).
I’m quite sure I have heard systems both far more expensive and far more accurate than anything you have ever seen (those two are not necessarily the same; usually quite the opposite). What you call “resolving” is most likely very colored and distorted sound (which might be pleasant, personal preferences and all) , you just would not know it unless you know how to actually tell accurate system from inaccurate one.
1 Like