HQPlayer Virtual Cable specifically for HQP?

Audio Gear Talk HQ Player
1

Is it possible to make an exclusive ‘virtual cable s/w’ for HQP? Or some similar function? I would like to play Spotify really in the HQP Client, but given there is no one here that agree to my suggestion in another topic, or anyone else in Spotify community, it will not be something Spotify agrees to open up for.

So, if possible to add a software in the HQP installation catalogue, that opens up when logging in to os, that make the HQP (‘virtual cable option’) always possible to select as an output in windows, apple os, linux os. When selected as a sound output it hooks up with the HQPlayer installation available on the local network or to HQP on same computer automatically with all the correct settings and dependencies. Perhaps it is necessary to install on receiving computer (with HQP installation) as well, but selected as sound input in os? If you intend to playback from same computer as HQP installs, you can select for installation as you already do with the User Manual and Client s/w. If the addition is intended on separate computer, it should be possible to select as stand-alone installation.

This tap of any arbitrary playback software, would allow for best possible signal processing to the HQP installation, would it not?

My reason for this, is that I have found that playback with HQPlayer playback is audibly better, than any other playback software, including Roon. The second best I assume would be to tap the playback software but with a HQPlayer made ‘tap’ so that the stream is processed best possible way, with proper codecs, bufferts, latency and any other quality assuring components/ dependencies required for best possible result.

2

RPi4 as a USB input NAA is maybe what you want?

3

Jussi I would not dream to add a RPI in a signal transport, honestly.

I have a pc NAA as USB output to my RME DAC, now isolated by a optic fiber bridge and dual linear uV psu’s.

4

Sorry, but I don’t understand why not?

5

Probably because it is the worst sounding SBC :smiley: Holo chosed CM4 module without wifi/bt and emmc. Still they need a thik aluminum cage to block its EMI. Any decent audio device with RPi inside requires proper shielding, on the oposide like Beaglebone for example.

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6

It is the most noisy unit there is. The USB output NAA I have, I have treated in so many ways to make it shut up. The reason for a PC build is that most things are possible to carefully isolate and filter. Still I cannot use it, without decoupling the USB transfer line to my RME DAC with step 1) an isolation chip, 2) an optical bridge.

See link to optical isolator: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005580483887.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.1.bbf8LN5JLN5Jkv&algo_pvid=81436347-c7ae-4eb3-9f11-2949bcffb997&algo_exp_id=81436347-c7ae-4eb3-9f11-2949bcffb997-0&pdp_ext_f={“order”%3A"43"%2C"spu_best_type"%3A"price"%2C"eval"%3A"1"%2C"fromPage"%3A"search"}&pdp_npi=6%40dis!SEK!874.69!874.69!!!659.20!659.20!%402103867617711795542355477ef4bb!12000047180949428!sea!SE!6086342000!X!1!0!n_tag%3A-29919%3Bd%3Aa7ca13f9%3Bm03_new_user%3A-29895&curPageLogUid=iQ1GCe0xD6ER&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch|query_from%3A|x_object_id%3A1005005580483887|_p_origin_prod%3A

Link to required silent dc power supply: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005010098137579.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_home.promoteWysiwyg_6000584500507.1005010098137579

Music playback gear is simply not good enough, not even purpose built gear. Tests often reveals SINAD and THD for the device, but sadly it is not measures that mean anything when hooked up at your own place in your local playback chain. Then all deals of, I am afraid. RPI’s was a long time ago, I realized it cannot be part of any playback. I am curious though on the new streamers launched in China using RPI computer boards without the jack and ports, aimed just to be hooked up to other boards. They are often supplied with multiple connectors from good uV power supplies.

See link to example on new streamer build: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005010295220814.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.2.18f1lFe9lFe9xf&algo_pvid=d4b8bf61-0fce-4713-96cc-1a43c68a834a&algo_exp_id=d4b8bf61-0fce-4713-96cc-1a43c68a834a-1&pdp_ext_f={“order”%3A"4"%2C"eval"%3A"1"%2C"fromPage"%3A"search"}&pdp_npi=6%40dis!SEK!10472.51!9739.44!!!1143.30!1063.27!%40210390c217711795086967967e9425!12000051827656473!sea!SE!6086342000!X!1!0!n_tag%3A-29919%3Bd%3Aa7ca13f9%3Bm03_new_user%3A-29895&curPageLogUid=PukfjSJ3THqW&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch|query_from%3A|x_object_id%3A1005010295220814|_p_origin_prod%3A

That is another story. My question is simply if there is some sort of ‘virtual cable’ s/w possible, but with your hands-on capacity, making is as exquisite as your HQP is. For my own sake, there is no need for network interaction, I play everything on same computer as HQPlayer is doing its miracles. I am curious if your genius mind can make this ‘tap’ as good as the rest of your wonderful s/w, providing HQP with best possible stream irrespective the playnack source?

7

There’s no “sound” in a device that just transfers data, as long as the data is transferred correctly.

I disable the WiFi/BT on RPi4, since I don’t need it. It is rather simple to power those components off, there are software controls for that.

No it is not, and the noisiness doesn’t matter at all for a digital input NAA as long as it transfers the data correctly.

I use Intona USB isolators, I think I currently have 6 or 7 units. They don’t need any external PSU either.

Yes, of course there are already existing options out there for that. But the solution I offered is more flexible.

I can measure for example from my power amp’s speaker terminals or loudspeaker terminals. Or from pre-amp output. Or from any other point in any of my audio systems.

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8

You are welcome to my home any time to listen to a rig that is truly silent. There is no one in my ‘hood, except me and my mentor in audio electronics, that can match how our rigs sound. Even my dear friend and studio sound engineer acknowledge the quite large difference to his studio with all the treatment done. It is a result from years of tuning and tweaking lots of small areas of my audio rig. Especially power supplies, also local small psu’s on/in the devices. You will certainly notice what I mean.

Now, do you think it would be interesting for not only me, but some more of your customers to have a HQPlayer unique ‘virtual cable’ implemented in the HQP installation? It think people would be interested, opening for any and all of the possible audio playback s/w’s with a unique HQP hot line tap … :wink:

9

From the technical point of view yes, i was talking more metaphorically. Data are being transmitted by the means of current, well the current that comes out of RPi is of bad quality and poisons everything ahead. Yes, isolators exist but why should one buy a device that cost 10x of an SBC if there are better SBCs for this particular task ? Like for example Allwinner or AMLogic SoCs. RPi is pursuing high performance, its SoC is way to overpowered for NAA or a streamer, but that needless power comes with unwanted emissions. The less power device consumes, the better! I am not saying RPi5 is bad, its very good but to be used where its power is wanted and needed.

10

Data from input NAA comes over network to HQPlayer. Regular copper ethernet is galvanically isolated as long as you use U/UTP cables. It is not any dirtier than the data coming from Qobuz or Spotify CDN over the internet.

It is not if you don’t feed it with dirty PSU. Since the 5V feed from the PSU goes straight to the USB connector VBUS. But anyway, this is not the topic here since we are not using USB for output here, only for input.

Because those SoCs and their BSPs are poor.

And I was not talking about RPi5, I was talking specifically about RPi4.

But RPi5 is really nice, with a bit of overclocking and proper cooling it can run stereo upsampling to DSD256 in a very affordable package and can be passively cooled. It can even operate as a standalone upsampler from USB input to USB output, bundled also with digital S/PDIF input if wanted.

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11

Because it would need maintaining three separate implementations for no good reason, since there are better alternatives.

Why do you think data from input NAA over network into HQPlayer would be more noisy than what you get over network from the Spotify CDN through a software loop to HQPlayer?

Spotify is not running any special low noise audiophile servers in the datacenter capacity they rent for their CDN. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

12

What ? Do i read this correctly ? NAA can be used to feed HQPlayer over IP and not only be an endpoint transport ?

13

Hi @Stefan_Jorma

I followed your previous “Spotify” chain with interest, now this, and I am curious to ask what is that you are really missing today in “Spotify via HQP” scenario? There are few (if not many) ways to route Spotify via HQP.

Only on my system immediately available options are (i am sure there are many more available for other members), for example:

  1. HQPlayer “input” NAA scenario => any decent streamer with Spotify HiRez and coax or toslink output - feeding (via coax or optical) RPi4 NAA with HifiBerry DIGI+ I/O as input NAA - which sends the stream via ethernet to HQPlayer server for processing.

  2. minidsp USBstreamer B scenario => any decent streamer with Spotify HiRez and optical output feeding USBstreamer B which is connected to HQPlayer server directly via USB

Personally I use second scenario, because I happened to have USBstreamer, while the first one is for connecting CD transport to HQP.

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14

Yes, it can be either at input side, or output side, or both at the same time.

This thread is about HQPlayer’s input side.

15

Agreed. USB input NAA with a RPI4 or RPI5 are insanely versatile. Jussi is right that it is indeed a better solution than a virtual cable.

I used to use hqplayer desktop version and would use a RPI4 as a UPNP hub, takes qobuz/tidal/spotify from mconnect, usb loop back to the same RPI4 input NAA to hqplayer for upsampling, sent the signal back to the same RPI4 as output NAA, USB to intona to dac. All processes in the digital domain.

You can even set up moode audio on the RPI4 or RPI5, AND set up networkaudiod in the background so you use moode audio as upnp hub AND moode audio radio function, loop back to RPI input NAA to Hqplayer.

You can even simply connect your laptop usb to the RPI4 or RPI5 input, your laptop will now detech the RPI4 or RPI5 as a “Hqplayer speaker”, so you can use for example jriver to manage your library and output to hqplayer, or selecting Hqplayer as the output speaker in your Qobuz/tidal/spotify app and stream to hqplayer.

For folks who question about noise, as explained by Jussi, perhaps use a low noise power supply and a USB isolator - a JDS Synapse max for example is $69. A RPI4 or RPI5 can run the super efficient NAA OS stable with 5V1A power supply, meaning its only burning a few watts there, so realistically how much noise can it generate compare to your powerful computer running virtual cable?

Now for NAA output, RPI5 again is a beast that can comfortably handle DSD256 7EC Fast, default filters and many shorter filters and 2s filters, I am also running audiolense convolution for room correction as well. I am using the rpi5 in my bedroom system and also stream to my home office naa because the rpi5 is simply rock solid, silent operations even with an ice tower cpu cooler, only burns a few watts in operations I can simply let it on 24/7/365.

I still use my gaming pc with 3080ti in my main system that can do upto dsd1024 with pretty much any filters/modulators settings. But I only use that for a couple hours in my evening session and not leaving it on 24/7 as it easily burns a few hundred watts when music plays

16

@jussi_laako @Deric_Chan @IgorSki perhaps some others as well

Thanks for all replies, but it does only add to my confusion. Numerous ways/paths/methodes, incorporating other softwares, possibly more devices, seem over-doing stuff?

Thanks for mocking me Jussi, about “Spotify’s low noise servers”, I did not expect that from you. But you are simply no better than ASR and their members, from where you were banned? To be honest, if a customer (and a large supporter of you and your knowledge) suggest additional features, that is in my world a great benefit. Other human beings exercise their brain to boost your business model. Wow, and you whine? I can tell you, I support three of your customers, who will not continue to use your software whenever I stop supporting it. They do not understand much from the threads in this forum…

A ‘virtual cable’ made exclusively for the HQP should be the ‘closest’ route and the best way to make 100% compatible to HQP input requirements, should it not? Including possible or required conversions/bufferts/formats/…, i.e.? Further it does not require any additional hardware?

I would not know how to use my existing NAA PC as a feedback input to HQP PC? - - -

  • I cannot install Spotify on that NAA image, I guess?
  • Does it mean I need another (Spotify exclusive) device to playback Spotify to the NAA PC, who send it back to the HQPlayer PC, who make conversion, then back to NAA PC again, and USB output to DAC?
  • Would a Wiim work as Spotify device?
  • How is Spotify device going to ‘send in’ the Spotify bitstream to the NAA (USB, network, SPDIF)?
  • USB A out connector from Spotify device (e.g. Wiim device), does not match USB B in connector (non-existent) NAA PC?
  • Have not seen USB2.0 A to A working, does it?
  • Optical line require a NAA with optical connector, thus hijacking the only optical direct line to RME DAC for my wife; the only manageable way for her to playback music on the rig.

Still, the best way seem to be playback any services from inside HQP Client. Plan B a stand-alone streaming software/service over a selectable audio output option in O/S, possible to select as an input in HQPlayer input tab (like a ‘virtual cable’) This weekend I joined one good friend having a session with a very expensive DAC and Eversolo T8 streamer, for trial. We tried several ‘signal routing’ but with no hardware changes. Best there is acc to my friend, without any question, was Qobuz playback from inside the HQPlayer (client), conversion DoP DSD256, ASDM7EC-fast and FIR, fvb. to Eversolo (in transparent pass through mode; NAA, no volume, etc) fvb. to DAC. Again, as few components and softwares as possible and stay within HQPlayer. It was good, but I prefered my new darling minringFIR. We tested Qobuz playback in Roon to HQP to Eversolo and Qobuz playback directly in Eversolos player. No one could match HQP Client playback of Qobuz from inside.

I do not think Qobuz servers are ‘low noise’ either … :wink:

I am going to purchase this as noise filter to put inside my NAA PC, it is also audible…

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005011590372604.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller.13.376auRuhuRuhzB&gps-id=pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40050.354490.0&scm_id=1007.40050.354490.0&scm-url=1007.40050.354490.0&pvid=63ca35a0-7808-4589-9ce3-63d72ea0beb2&_t=gps-id:pcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40050.354490.0,pvid:63ca35a0-7808-4589-9ce3-63d72ea0beb2,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238113%231998&pdp_ext_f={“order”%3A"3"%2C"eval"%3A"1"%2C"sceneId"%3A"30050"%2C"fromPage"%3A"recommend"}&pdp_npi=6%40dis!SEK!1010.14!352.03!!!761.28!265.30!%402103835e17711750356126679ebf86!12000056002184018!rec!SE!6086342000!X!1!0!n_tag%3A-29919%3Bd%3Aa7ca13f9%3Bm03_new_user%3A-29895%3BpisId%3A5000000200404592&utparam-url=scene%3ApcDetailTopMoreOtherSeller|query_from%3A|x_object_id%3A1005011590372604|_p_origin_prod%3A

17

I’m reluctant to implement something that is a lot of work to do and maintain over time while not offering any objective benefits.

It doesn’t help anything in this respect. The current solution I offered is the most general purpose and not bound to any particular OS. I’m using it with my iPad or iPhone as a source. Which also solves the Apple Music output rate switching issue that exists on macOS.

No, it is not necessary and wouldn’t help here.

No, you can run Spotify on your PC or any other device, and direct it’s output to the NAA which will send it to HQPlayer.

Yes, but IIRC it doesn’t support Spotify Lossless at least yet.

In this case USB, but it can be also S/PDIF or AES/EBU if you like. Spotify is particularly easy since it doesn’t require automatic rate switching since it is always fixed 44.1k rate.

USB A to USB C of RPi4. Or one of the other supported devices with USB device side hardware capability. Also works on the original UP Board which is the first one I used for the purpose (USB3 micro-B there).

No, such would be illegal connection and could damage hardware.

I don’t really understand this. You can have pretty much as many optical outputs on your computer as you could imagine. For example RME Digiface USB gives you immediately four.

Assuming you are on Windows, have you tried for example this:

Yes, so you don’t need to worry about the input NAA either…

P.S. There is a long thread about the topic here:

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  1. So, how do I direct Spotify running on my HQP PC to my NAA PC on same local network? Acc to my settings in Spotify, there is only the hardwire HQP PC outputs available seen by, and selected in, the Windows O/S, as of now. Something seems to be missing to direct a stream from a PC playback software like Spotify. Or, does it show up on the tablet when streaming Spotify like in Connect-mode?

  2. I guess I have to select the NAA as input in HQP settings input tab? Or is it smart and auto detects it some way? I would assume the input tab also may show the NAA as ALSA and display my rme dac also as input, but should not be selected?

  3. I guess the output tab should state the NAA over ALSA and RME as I normally have?

Edit; when it comes to silence and electrical noise, I seem to have some more insights than most other hifi-nerds and also technicians, especially IT-people. Mostly under immediate attack from ‘fellow’ technicians who claim it is not a problem. And if it is a problem, it is any how not audible… I have three other rigs in my hood I can listen to (the three I referred to in my previous novel). The others (quite many) play out in the backyard. The usual claim is that my sound, and the three others lack dynamics. The truth is that the combined noise level of a rig electrically interconnected is so large, creates so much sonic artifacts and is glued within peoples references, so when people get a chance to listen to a substantially more silent rig, they feel it is not dynamic. The industry awareness starting to emerge now, is soon getting there, mostly from China. But they still think 10 uV ripple is good enough from a PSU. Well, there is a reason why RME DAC-2 gained 3 dB dýnamics with their own new PSU, ASR said it will not be audible, my own China PSU at 3 uV is a substantially audible upgrade. I would be a very happy man, if I did not detect the rattling noise in music from all the various noise present … That is the real benefit with HQP from you, Jussi, but can’t fix it alone.

19

You can connect your PC usb A to RPI4 usb c (RPI4 running NAA OS). Then your PC will now see “Hqplayer” as a sound output device. In your PC running Spotify app, select “Hqplayer’ as sound output device. Go in hqplayer input menu select RPI4 as USB NAA input, on the URL line type in audio:default/44100/2 press enter. Now whatever you selected to play in Spotify will be output by Hqplayer

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Thanks, but no thanks. No more devices, especially not electrically interconnected RPI’s. It is a bliss with all the fiber optics I have implemented in my rig. I will wait to hear if Jussi can guide me how to play Spotify on my HQP PC, and ‘direct it’ to the NAA PC, a self built NAA running on HQP NAA image.