So, based on the information from Danny et al. It does appear though that integration with Amazon and Spotify are indeed possible using just APIs. I’d like more clarification on why the daily catalog dumps are needed.
Here’s one possible implementation using only the APIs. I’ll assume that there are search APIs (which given a query return a list of tracks/artists/albums matching a query) and streaming APIs (which given some track ID, plays the track). This is indeed the case for Spotify (the search API is public and the streaming API is private and available to streamer manufacturers). Amazon music has no public APIs but it sounds like private APIs exist.
Roon is using some other data to populate its album/artist/track metadata. Perhaps daily dumps from the distributors (CDBaby, Distrokid, TuneCore, etc.) or using metadata that Tidal and Qobuz already provide. My guess is Roon is concerned that using APIs, they wouldn’t be able to capture a “snapshot” of what’s currently available right now using a given service. The search APIs for instance would be rate limited.
Well, tracks disappearing is actually fairly rare. When you search for a track and you are using Spotify you can simply do the lookup lazily. First search within Roon’s own cache. Eg; if the track is “the bars” by artist “Foo bar” on album “Bar Blends (Remastered), 2019” then Roon already knows if the track exists on Tidal/Qobuz from their daily dumps. If it does, we just query the Spotify/amazon search API with that metadata and see if it exists. If we’ve already queried in the past eg; 24 hours and it doesn’t then we report it as not available on that service. If we haven’t queried then we submit a search API query for that track and update it as available on Spotify/Amazon HD. This would all be done on Roon’s servers.
Streaming is very straightforward and I’m assuming that’s not the issue since that’s done client-side. I understand that Spotify connect is basically using something like a headless client but hardware streamers do have a special streaming API. I’m guessing Amazon Music HD has the same setup.
Anyways, maybe there’s some reason that hasn’t been mentioned yet for why this isn’t possible.
It’s speculation, of course, but as a software engineer my conjecture here is that they’re using the catalog dumps to capture daily state of the various streaming services. This lets them eg; populate which versions of tracks/albums are available on each service. My conjecture that they’re also using 3rd party metadata is supported by the fact that artist bios, album details, etc. don’t match what’s on the actual Tidal/Qobuz pages in many cases. It’s also a reasonable concern that they’re doing some kind of batch processing job on the daily catalog dumps to fetch this 3rd party metadata for new tracks, normalize the data so that artists/albums aren’t completely separate entities for each streaming service, and then make that available to Roon users. Using an API would be a major undertaking since this process would be “lazy” and require more infrastructure. But at least for Spotify, even their public search API contains enough functionality that a basic implementation could be technically feasible provided a private discussion over rate limits, etc.
Also, I know from a contact at a device manufacturer that eg; Spotify does provide a private streaming API that can be used for streamers. Amazon music is now appearing on new streamers so should have a streaming API too (otherwise how are the streamers actually playing music?)
Claiming that they require more than just an API does not provide a technical reason for why it’s not possible. I don’t dispute that it’s possible there’s a valid technical reason but whatever it is, we don’t know about it. I’m speaking purely as an engineer looking at the functionality available on Roon and data surfaced to the user— it does appear possible on a technical level.
Yeah, sure. @danny is just lying to you. If it all it required was the API, don’t you think Roon would already be integrated with every service that provided an API?
Your commentary seems rather uncivil and I was certainly not accusing Danny of lying. Nor do you seem to make an argument on technical merit. So I’ll leave it at this:
I’m merely saying that, provided a significant change in how they do things, it should be technically possible to pull this off. There may be drawbacks (eg; album metadata may be sparse for albums not available on any of the other services) or there may be licensing restrictions but it should be possible. The Roon team is in the unique decision of weighing these trade offs… but it doesn’t mean there aren’t “options” here. Certainly, if I were trying to make a Roon competitor (which I’m not) I know that an approximation to what’s available with tidal could be done with Spotify given the same access to distributor dumps.
Whatever. I am just flabbergasted that you think what Roon does can be managed with an API when Roon has told us that is not the case. Roon does not want a half baked experience with some of the content. The UI and UE needs to be consistent.
I seriously doubt they’d change how they work with steaming services now. They’ve stuck to their position of needing data dump even when Tidal was only integrated service and there was talk of them going out of business. They want the streaming services to work as seamless as your local library.
Sure I’d like more options but not at the expense of a worse experience. And Qobuz is getting better and better with lower prices and catalog growing. Still not quite as large as Amazon yet but improving.
With the Qobuz price reduction, I no longer have any interest in Amazon. It would be good to have another option for use with Roon, but only if it’s done right, as they did with Tidal and Qobuz.
I think it’s almost possible to have too many options. I get free Apple Music from Verizon and free Spotify from Bose. I never use either one of them since I have Tidal and Qobuz with Roon.
The advantage of Amazon would be larger library and just a few $ savings for being prime member.
Even if integrated there are disadvantages. One is heard there are mixed format albums. They are not always using the actual tracks for that album. Qobuz still has some hires albums Amazon doesn’t. Qobuz has links to cd artwork and some albums and addition info. Also Soundliz doesn’t work with Amazon to transfer favorites.
I agree that the situation seems confusing at present. I’m a new user of Roon, trying to find the right configuration of streaming offers and my local music. I too like Qobuz, but would much prefer the usability of Tidal at the moment. Amazon represents a new dimension for Roon, and I’m sure efforts are underway to address this. I haven’t seen any evidence yet that Amazon are being difficult about partnering with Roon…
For me, the primary interest in a successful Amazon HD/ Roon integration is that Quboz is a really tiny company, as of thIs August, they had only 25K USA subscribers and only 200K globally. Tidal always seems about to collapse. Amazon is a behemoth that has priced their service in a way to decimate Quboz and Tidal (at least their hifi tier). It’s within the realm of possibility that Amazon may be the only hifi streaming game in town at some point.
I think it really comes down to the fact that there is no good solution out there currently. We all know Amazon issues with non compatibility w/Roon and Bluesound. Qobuz is great but small and not willing to change their usability, Tidal uses MQA etc. I think Apple and Spotify has great potential to knock them all out of the water once they get on true hi-res. The approach I will take is to stick with one and wait a year or so till the industry matures.
Amazon hasn’t even upgraded their own hardware to take advantage of full hires. They have a product called Echo Link that you could use to stream wirelessly and hook up to a dac. It’s output maxes out at 96k. Since offering up to 192k, their hardware should handle that as well.
Thought the Echo Link with Amazon HD would be affordable solution instead of using roon. I already have lifetime sub and Qobuz is now within reason. Only missing piece is larger library.
I do understand have Amazon integration gives impression of a long term streaming solution. There’s always talk of the little ones going under but that hasn’t happened yet.
No doubt, That’s when they start to raise the prices back to normal. Meanwhile likely cutting royalties to artists.That’s their business model. Come in and undercut the competition until they drive them out of business and then raise prices gradually back to what they were or higher meanwhile providing less service.
I emailed Amazon to request integration as well. As a Roon and Amazon customer, I certainly see the value in having both services integrated…and happy to ask if that helps. Amazon responded by saying they are working on it and trying to get it resolved (seems like a similar message received by others). Does that mean it is going to happen?