RAVENNA The new benchmark in consumer digital audio systems

Audio Gear Talk
41

The dCS and Cocktail units use external boxes. That is not remotely anything like a credit card sized board built right into the DAC serving the role. And there’s no high resolution DSD 256 support either. Believe me I’m open to learning, but I need to be informed of something I don’t already know for this to happen.

I understand I2S is the final language all PCM DAC’s use regardless of interface technology. But lets not try to mislead folks by using this to tip toe around what both you and I know I’m referring to, A board with Ethernet input, and I2S output. A direct competitor to the Zman.

Nothing I have posted so far is false information. Other than not knowing the amount of DAC’s using these boards yet. Claiming 95% of the partners was a false claim. I’ll admit that. Which is why I’m seeking further information. So far you added 1 to the list with the Krell Vanguard. Still waiting for more.

“Ultimately that leads to people making purchase decisions based on false information and that does a disservice to everyone”

Great example here:

“Every product listed on the Roon Ready partner list is either using one of the Stream or Comverse cards or has implemented a proprietary solution”

42

The dCS Rossini uses the Stream 800 card. There’s no external box involved.

This is where I got involved here. NONE of the Roon Ready DACs use USB as any part of the transport mechanism. They all use either a 3rd party card or a proprietary solution. They all take a network input and turn that into I2S internally.

Again we’re talking about Roon Ready DACs which, by definition, sit on the network and speak RAAT then convert that stream to analog. All of these products have a network input and none of them use USB (or anything else) as the transport mechanism. Just I2S.

43

That’s another misleading claim that’s absolutely false. Okay lets make a list of DAC manufacturers on the list that prove that claim is false:

"NONE of the Roon Ready DACs use USB as any part of the transport mechanism"

1: Exasound
2: Auralic
3: Schiit
4: Naim
5: Mytek
6: Oppo
7: Peachtree
8: Soulution
9: Audioquest
10:Sim Audio
11:MSB
12:Exogal
13:DIDIT
14:IFI
15:LH LABS
16: dCS
17:EMM Labs
18: Meitner
19: Bel Canto
20: Matrix

44

You aren’t listing Roon Ready DACs. You’re listing Roon Tested DACs. Big difference.

Roon Ready means they speak RAAT.

Roon Tested means that they have been tested with Roon using whatever transport mechanism is appropriate.

45

Okay “network ready players” then. Still well over 70% use USB or AES/EBU in the chain. Let’s use Exasound for an example. Once again here’s your claim:

"NONE of the Roon Ready DACs use USB as any part of the transport mechanism"

How does Exasound, who’s on both lists get around USB?

46

So are you here to bash Roon or to share new sort of speak technology?

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47

How am I bashing Roon? Roon is a software company. ROCK is half of what I claimed to be “The new benchmark in consumer digital audio systems” The other half is hardware which Roon doesn’t make.

How is that bashing Roon?

48

It’s not a DAC, it’s a network bridge. It’s sole purpose in life is to provide network support to legacy DACs. The only way to do that is via USB, AES, or some other transport mechanism.

In terms of actual DACs (digital in and analog out) none of the Roon Ready products are using USB (or any other legacy transport)

49

Exasound doesn’t make DAC’s? Their Playpoint streamer only has the option of USB out.

I think you should quit while you’re only a bit behind. Because it doesn’t look the the trend is about to change :slight_smile:

This looks like a DAC to me:

2BA19755-4A3A-4F27-B519-296FBD1302F7.JPG3264×2448 1.97 MB

Exasound is on the list!.PNG1193×833 129 KB

50

Wow. Just Wow.

You are confused about what “Roon Ready” means. I’m sorry–you’re just wrong about it. We defined the terms. I can tell you what it means, even though others already did.

Roon Tested = USB
Roon Ready = Networked devices using RAAT.

We have a page where the devices are listed out clearly and authoritatively, too. Note the lack of confusion about what these terms mean in how we break down the categories on this page.

That list of brands that you came up with includes only two that make Roon Ready products: dCS and exaSound. dCS’s DACs use I2S internally. exaSound’s PlayPoint uses USB, but it’s the exception, not the norm. The rest make Roon Tested products.

For some reason, you said you are struggling to find devices using Convers or StreamUnlimited. I count 11 on that page I just linked.

Of the 69 devices on that list, 66 of them are capable of playing music using RAAT without USB in the signal path.

The three that aren’t are: exaSound PlayPoint, TotalDAC d1, and the Sonore microRendu.

Some others can use USB in some configurations, but are primarily purchased as digital bridges–like the Bryston products and the Auralic ARIES, SOSE, etc. Maybe you’ll decide to harp on the fact that some of them aren’t DACs.

As I said before…having USB in the signal path of a Roon Ready device is the exception, not the rule.

And your original thesis. Let me repeat it:

RAAT is mainly just a solution to network connect to USB interface DAC’s.

This isn’t true. It’s misinformation, and continuing to defend it is not making you look like the good guy or the smart guy in this discussion. Maybe it’s time to stop :slight_smile:

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51

Most of those items on that list aren’t DAC’s. They are multi-function all-in-one lower end mass market products like from Bluesound. The rest I have on my list already. Not the same market as the Zman- competitors at all. Which is the topic of this thread.

Either way the Converse or Stream unlimited products can’t hold a candle to the Zman. That will be a very clear reality in the near future.

59

I think I made it quite clear I am looking for direct alternatives to the ZMAN. If you use, USB, AES/EBU, a Raspberry PI, or external I2S over LVDS, you aren’t a direct competitor to the ZMAN. I don’t care which Roon title you hold. Yes I’m aware of 2-3 boards that offer some of the same functionally (which were mentioned already) But only 11 DAC’s (Some of which are different models from the same company) in the whole wide world (according to Brian) are currently using them. And there’s a lot of DAC’s on the market in this big world of audio.

60

Fair enough.

I wonder why the limitation of DSD256 with this Zman board. I’m new to up-sampling to DSD512 with my iFi iDSD but thoroughly enjoying it.

I’m sure support for iDSD512 won’t be too far away.

61

It’s not really a limitation. 512 is the real limitation. The reason why is you require much higher jitter clocks to support DSD 512 than DSD 256. Not only that all of the processing power required to upsample to 512. Since there’s no 512 native material available. I explained this in a few posts on another thread:

Try swapping the clock in your IFI to a much lower jitter 22.579Mhz unit, and reprogramming the Xmos USB interface for it. Then let me know if upsampling 256 sounds better (using much less CPU power) than 512 does now. :slight_smile:

DSD 1024 over the Zman could easily be possible. But the Swiss aren’t cavemen with the “bigger hammer can get a better job done” mentality. And they aren’t purely driven by exploiting the ignorance of the average audiophile. They genuinely want better sound.

64

Just so that I understand this, does the above refer to a DAC that internally upsamples to DSD512?

Or this jitter issue exists even if the up-sampling to DSD512 is done by a PC and sent to a DSD512 NOS DAC?

65

The jitter issue is related to the clock inside the DAC. In order for a DAC to process DSD 512 (regardless where the DSP is handled) the DAC requires either clocks with much higher jitter, or use PLL generation using a reference clock that results in even higher jitter. Nobody is exempt from this reality. No matter how good their marketing team is.

66

Ok thanks.

67

No problem. It’s not an issue related to marketing. But rather engineering. If any real engineer tells you different, they are flat out lying to you. I could provide you a list of at least 15 top industry engineers that would back me 100% on this claim if I wanted to.

68

These measurements are for the iDSD I own: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/blogs/entry/428-ifi-idsd-micro-measurements/

I’m not going to pretend I’m an expert but to a silly Billy like me, the up-sampling to DSD512 measurements look better than DSD256?

I don’t know if those measurements capture or reflect any of the jitter you’re mentioning though.

69

You are so right on this. Since I started with computer audio 12 years ago I have seen so many “ultimate” solutions coming by, usb being one of them as the solution for all problems compared to spdif. Noeadays people believe usb is the worst thing ever invented because the where brought in doubt by all the usb cleanup boxes that hit the market. With ethernet it’s going to be excactly the same. Now it’s “the solution, the cure of it all” tomorrow there are a whole bunch of ethernet “cleanup” devices will hit the market to cure problems you never thought the existed in the first place. Personally I do not follow the hype anymore.

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