Roon performance issues with a Nucleus+, will Titan solve my problems?

Roon Server Machine

Nucleus+

Networking Gear & Setup Details

Connected Audio Devices

Number of Tracks in Library

294060

Description of Issue

Not always, but very often, Roon takes a long time (sometimes VERY long) to search, or really to do anything (like moving from “home” to “genres”), even to start playing. Is this because of the large size of my library (almost 300,000 tracks, in the form of files on my Nucleus+, and streams from Tidal and Qobuz)? My wifi and external cable modem are excellent, very fast, no problems with hi def TV, etc. Will Titan help solve this problem? Or what might help? Thanks!

How much RAM does your Nucleus+ have?

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I don’t know how much RAM it came with (I haven’t upgraded it); I bought it in 2018.

I may be wrong, but I think they shipped with 8gb RAM.

Happy to be corrected by others :+1:

This thread may interest you.

If your Nucleus+ is working but just slow (possibly due to your library size), I’d look to upgrade your RAM first.

4 Likes

I wouldn’t. As @Suedkiez stated above, if the Roon Server is not crashing, then increasing the memory will not make it perform dramatically faster.

As has been mentioned many times before on these forums, adding more memory may improve performance slightly because of the move from single memory channel (1 dimm) to dual memory channel (2 dimms) but this is not because there is more memory.

For example, if your Nucleus+ currently has 1 8GB dimm fitted, the following three options will all give exactly the same (small) performance improvement.

  • Adding another 8GB dimm (to give 16GB total).
  • Removing the 8GB dimm and replacing it with 2 x 16GB dimms (32GB total)
  • Removing the 8GB dimm and replacing it with 2 x 4GB dimms (Total memory unchanged).

However, if, for example, your Nucleus+ already has 2 dimms (let us say, for example, 2 x 4GB), then replacing those 2 dims with a single dimm with larger capacity (16GB) will actually degrade performance.

In short, irrespective of the change in total memory (provided the total memory before and after is sufficient to support your library without application crashes), going from 1 dimm fitted to two identical dimms fitted will give a small performance improvement but if there are already 2 dimms fitted, then there is no performance improvement to be had.

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I totally agree with you both @Wade_Oram & @Suedkiez

I’ll elaborate my response based on increasing the RAM.

To say a Titan would speed Roon up would also be to say Roon has slowed down over the course of updates.

If the latter is true then Roon Labs (maybe inadvertently) are forcing users to upgrade their servers to……oh, the Titan $$$$ :thinking:

If Roon Labs hasn’t caused Roon to slow down then there must be bugs in Roon causing the slow downs.

So if Roon Labs haven’t caused Roon to slow down, why haven’t they just delivered a device years ago with the same performance the Titan has today?!

I’d personally prefer to spend money on RAM than the Titan. I’m aware RAM increase doesn’t speed a computer up as such, but……

Generally, the faster the RAM, the faster the processing speed. With faster RAM, you increase the speed at which memory transfers information to other components. Meaning, your fast processor now has an equally fast way of talking to the other components, making your computer much more efficient.

So a RAM upgrade could help :man_shrugging:

Agreed. Improving DRAM performance either by replacing DRAM with appropriately chosen faster modules or by going from single channel to dual channel does improve the performance of the machine.

However, I would argue that the performance improvement would not be dramtic enough to change a perception of a device from being slow to being acceptable. It would still be slow. In fact, I would be inclined to believe that a memory upgrade (to faster dimms) of a system that already has 2 channels in use would yield no observable change in performance.

Processor memory cache architectures are designed with the aim of separating processor performance from DRAM performance to the highest degree possible and, with modern processors, they have got very good at this indeed. As such, the memory utilisation patterns of many applications would mean minimal gains in system performance even with quite dramatic gains in memory performance.

Years ago, I had an I7-2700K based computer with some DRAM in it that had a number of RAM settings profies stored including an XMP profile for maximum performance. Naturally, I seleted the XMP profile :grinning:

However, at some point I had a system crash and on rebooting, the BIOS settings got reset to their defaults which meant that the DRAM was being clocked significantly slower. The point here is that, although, the computer was measurebly slower as a consequence (running tests like SANDRA memory bandwith tests), in normal use, even with the processor intensive applications that were the reason for me to buy the 2700K in the first place, I did not notice the difference. For example, the change in performance of my CaptureOne RAW image batch processor may have been to drop the image processing rate from ~30 images per minute to ~29 images per minute. Not really significant and certainly not noticeable.

The most significant DRAM performance upgrade will be going from single channel to dual channel (100% improvement in memory performance - but maybe a single digit percentage point rise in processor performance for most applications). Once that is done, it is highly doubtful that further performance improvements will be observed when the DRAM is upgraded to faster modules (which may yield a 10-20% improvement in memory performance if you are lucky and no improvement at all if the old modules were already well matched to the system). There are even cases where fitting higher performance memory can degrade the performance of the system although this tends to happen less often than it used to.

In short, if you have got to the point where you are blaming hardware for poor performance, a complete hardware upgrade (processor, chipset, DRAM, everything) will be need to make a significant difference.

Whether or not purchasing the Titan in order to get that performance is appropriate is another matter. From what I have read, it is likely to be a significant upgrade over the Nucleus+ but I suspect that other solutions may be even better from a performance point of view (i5 or i7 NUC13/ROCK combinations as well as systems based on desktop processors come to mind).

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Roon doesn’t perform well with large libraries that’s pretty much well documented across the forum. It got worse with 2.0 land really has not improved. I don’t think the hardware is the problem, it’s pure software and the design decisions made long ago that are bottlenecking it not the hardware. I can see how little resources it actually uses when in operation only certain processes tax the hardware and then not enough to cause the issues we see.

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Hi Kenneth,

How many of your library tracks are local vs streaming source.

I’m not sure how many of my library tracks are local, vs. from streaming sources; is there a way to find that out?

Sure, go to the Tracks page, click on Focus, scroll down until you get to the Storage Location. There should at minimum be an entry for each local storage location with a count and each streaming source, again with a count.

Like below

Thank you, I didn’t know that I could get that information. Here’s what it says:

Nucleus+ internal storage: 105907
Qobuz Library: 86894
Tidal Library: 44847
USB SSD Music: 37634

What does this information tell you?

Thanks!

Ken

Hello @Kenneth_Reinhard ,

I’ve activated diagnostics mode for your account and what this action does is upload a set of logs to our servers for review. Looking over these logs, I am not seeing any out-of-memory exceptions, so I suspect that the issue is elsewhere.

What I am seeing though are some spurious networking errors, where the network connectivity for the Nucleus suddenly drops, and an interesting error related to one of your playlists. I’m going to run the errors by the team to get a second opinion, but I noticed that the Nucleus hasn’t has a reboot recently, can you try to perform a full reboot via the Web UI and let us know if there’s any performance improvement after, and if so, how long the performance works ok?

Ok, thanks; I’ve rebooted and will see if there’s improvement.

Hey @Kenneth_Reinhard,

Since some time has passed I wanted to check in on this thread and see how things are performing?

We’ll be on standby for your results, thank you! :pray:

Thanks for your continuing concern. Right now things are loading quickly; last night they were quite sluggish. All I’ve done at this point is reboot, as instructed. I’ve ordered 16 x 16 RAM for my Nucleus+, and I’ll install that when it comes.

Hi @Kenneth_Reinhard,

We’ll keep this thread open until you have a chance to test with the upgraded RAM. Thank you for the update.

I upgraded the RAM in my Nucleus+ to 2 x 16g; there may be a slight improvement in lag time with searches, playing, etc. but nothing dramatic. I see that both of the hard drives (both SSD) in and attached to my Nucleus+ are at about 95% capacity – do you think that could be slowing things down? Or is it just the size of my library that is causing the sluggishness, not the size of the discs?

Depending on who you listen to, having an SSD near full capacity…

SSDs can slow down and lose performance when they’re near capacity. This is because it takes longer for programs to find partially empty blocks on a full SSD.

And about the 95% capacity

Personally, I keep 10 to 15% free, but, if you search on the internet you might see advice of 20 to 25% free space should be kept.