Roon - Zen Stream - Qobuz dropouts

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

Roon Core Machine

Apple MacBook Pro with M1 Pro on Ventura 13.1

Networking Gear & Setup Details

Telia Fiber Modem & Media Converter by my ISP
TP Link ACE 75
TP Link unmanaged switches

Connected Audio Devices

Ifi Zen Stream on latest 2.32.5 firmware

Number of Tracks in Library

ca 30500 tracks - mostly local - but issue is with Qobuz high res

Description of Issue

I experience dropouts with Qobuz - the higher the bitrate, the more frequent. Tidal seems to be more resilient, but I have no MQA DAC, so there is no point in streaming too high resolution MQA files.

Qobuz at …/24 - more frequent the higher the bitrate - has dropouts.
I monitor between 1-1.5 MB/s to my laptop and 0.6 Mb/s out. After half the track buffering seems complete and incoming traffic drops until a spike when next track starts.
Often a track stops after 20-80 percent. Sometimes I can restart it at that point… sometimes Roon also loses the connection to the Zen Stream. I get Qobuz media loading slow and cannot login to Qobuz messages. Makes Qobuz basically unusable with Jazz and Classical, as long track have to be restarted - no fun at all.
Have gotten the new router above. Core and Zen Stream and NAS are on Ethernet. IPv6 is disabled. Wifi on Core and Stream are disabled. Lease time local is 24h. DNS is changed to Google DNS. All the tricks I could find are not helping.

Any ideas?
I have now spent some days on restarting, rewiring, resetting, switching to 5GHz Wifi and back to Ethernet, new router, new DNS service, etc. - Losing my patience with Qobuz, Roon, and the Zen Stream, which are part of the problem… Checked with my ISP and their analysis could not find any connection faults.

Thx in advance for suggestions.

[Wes]

HI @Jan-Uwe_Hilger,

I took a look at your diagnostics info and can only find references to errors connecting to \BearNas.

Can you help me out by identifying a specific instance and providing me with the date, time, and track being played when this happens? I can dig a lot deeper with that info and it will keep me from having to sort through thousands of lines of code.

Thanks,
Wes

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

BearNas is my server that I barely play from…
I got many faults during the last two days…
Examples include
Herbie Hancocks Maiden Voyage album at 192/24 almost always already in first or second track.
Nina Simone - The Montreal Years at 96/24 - even there during the first couple of tracks
Hans Zimmer - The World of Hans Zimmer
John Coltrane - A Love Supreme 96/24 first or second part of four already…
Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder differed resolutions tried…
Basically I get dropouts with everything above 44.1 KHz via Qobuz…
Also Eliane Elia - Quietude 96/24 during the first couple of tracks…
I tried many of those repeatedly yesterday throughout day and evening and today…
I will try to note down more instances as they occur.
Best
Jan

[Wes]

Hi @Jan-Uwe_Hilger,

A few of things to try. Please backup your DB before embarking on this!

1. Fix the issue with the NAS location. In most of your logs, the errors are repeating on both sides of your playback beginning and ending for the examples above. I’m not certain this will have any bearing but it’s attempting to connect to this over and over and it could create a performance issue.

2. Clear the cache on your core. Steps below:

• Exit out of Roon
• Find and open your Roon database
• Navigate to /Library/Roon/Cache
• Move the contents of the /Cache folder elsewhere, like your desktop

3. Reset RAAT:

• Navigate to your Roon’s Database Location
• Find the folder that says “RAATServer”
• Rename “RAATServer” to “RAATServer_old”

Note: Deleting these files will

• Log you out of Tidal/Qobuz
• Delete your endpoint names.
• Delete saved DSP configs.

Let me know how things go!

Wes

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

Did what you said.
Twice.
Does not log me out of Qobuz. Roon goes back to where it was. Scans my library again…
Get dropouts directly again. Herbie Hancock Maiden Voyage 192/24…
Should I remove my NAS location from the library in Roon?

[Wes]

Hi @Jan-Uwe_Hilger,

I would definitely fix the storage access timeouts by ensuring your credentials are set accordingly and that Roon can see the share.

I see a loss of network connectivity as the file (maiden voyage) plays.

02/21 18:20:01 Info: FTMSI-B qo/A2610F65: allocated bw changed from 51200 to 0 kbps

Roon tries to rebuffer and gets stopped. We can’t see if this is general network issues or the device but this is what the logging shows. It fails to buffer the file and then throws an access timeout:

02/21 18:22:59 Trace: [prebuffer] ready 652800/1920000 (34%) @ 0/362 sec
02/21 18:23:02 Trace: [Ifi ZenJan] [Lossless, 24/192 QOBUZ FLAC => 24/192] [5% buf] [PLAYING @ 7:54/7:56] Maiden Voyage - Herbie Hancock
02/21 18:23:04 Debug: FTMSI-B closed file for qo/A2610F65; open files:0
02/21 18:23:04 Debug: FTMSI-B qo/A2610F65 download status: AllBlocksDownloaded accessTimeout:True openFiles:0 prev:(AllBlocksDownloaded,True,1)

Can you verify again that the Zen is up to date? Hard reset it?

Another suggestion would be to set your router DNS to cloudfare or google (1.1.1.1 or 8.8.8.8/8.8.4.4)

Thanks,
Wes

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

The storage is mapped to the Macbook Pro that runs the core.
The library is scanned and I set it to just rescan on upstart. As I am streaming from Qobuz, there should be no reason for Roon to try to access it right?
Still I am receiving dropouts.

E.g. Serge Gainsbourg Histoire de Melody Nelson stopped befoe playing the last track
On Christian McBride - Live at The Village Vanguard, I started to get dropouts in the second track.

The Zen has been factory reset twice. Once yesterday and once today - it is now running the latest beta version 2.32.5 that I stated in my initial post. The problems were there with the 2.31.7 which I believe is the latest released version, which is why I enabled further updates.

I see exactly the issue you are describing in the activity monitor:

• the internet rate drops to zero - no more download/ buffering for a couple of seconds
• track stops - sometimes it will be possible to restart, sometimes not
• sometimes I get a network error message and/or album not found in Roon
• often coupled with failed to login to Qobuz
• sometimes the Zen vanishes for some time from the play bar and it reads select audio source or some such before the Zen reappears.

Should I remove the network share from Roon “storage”?

I have already changed the router from the ISP provided to the TP Link Axe75, which has improved the situation a bit. At the same time, i have already switched to Google DNS. On the whole, I experience a much more responsive network. Still the audio fom Qobuz drops out.

For information: I have never run into a problem with TV streaming via Ethernet to my Samsung TV - I use Netflix, HBO, Disney, Prime, Apple TV, Discovery plus, etc - as well as IPTV via a separate box. All these devices are connected via the same switch as the Zen and the NAS. Moving my computer with the core to that switch did nothing to improve the situation. So I have it on a different TP Link switch that is attached to a different Ethernet wall outlet which is of course connected to the router via patch.

So basically, I see now a very responsive network - mostly Ethernet - that can stream high quality TV, but randomly stops playing high res from Qobuz.
Speedtest shows 104/104 Ping 12 bidirectional, 24 down, 18 up.

[Axel_Lesch]

Please @Jan-Uwe_Hilger
Can you try to disable the QoS and Parental control on the TP-Link router?

[Axel_Lesch]

If this doesn’t help, can you try disconnecting the TP-Link router from the modem and connect your core machine to the modem directly to test speed.
If this speed test result is the same as the TP-Link router test, it indicates the issue is on your modem or Internet Service.

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

Hi!
I only used QoS to prioritise the core and the streamer and have switched all QoS off.
No parental controls used ever.

Could you help me and point out what is wrong with the speed test?
I got 104/104 i.e. up and down and have Fiber 100/100. How should I get even more when connecting directly to the modem? It is already more than what I pay for?

Made another test via different site
Ping 12ms, Jitter 1ms, down 100.9 Mbps, up 104.1 Mbps - that should be good right?

[Axel_Lesch]

@Jan-Uwe_Hilger

Could you help me and point out what is wrong with the speed test?

Nothing wrong here. This was meant to rule out that any configuration of your modem is causing the problem, as well as an issue on your or Internet Service. If possible, could you still try whether Qobuz playback works when your core machine is connected directly to the modem and the TP Link is removed from the network, for testing purposes only?

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

I am trying to narrow down the issue.

I can stream Qobuz 192/24 to my Zen Stream - whole album no interruption - if I use MConnect as control point. This works even when using my Mac as a control point on Ethernet connection. So download speeds and stabillity are not the problem and Ethernet seems to be stable enough for the types of contact that MConnect needs repeatedly with the Mac during playback and for managing the Queue that is never written to the streamer.

I can also stream at least a whole album 96/24 without interruptions from Qobuz using Roon with my Mac as core being on 2.4 GHz Wifi - verified last night. 192/24 Roon to Zen via Wifi this morning also seems to be fine.

Qobuz 192/24 via Ethernet and the native Qobuz app to my Mac works fine as well. But I do not want to listen on the Macbook…

192/24 Qobuz via Roon either to Zen or to Macbook audio output leads to dropout and loss of Ethernet connection, which is reestablished after approx 10-15 seconds.
I forgot to mention that I am using a USB-C port adapter to Ethernet. That has not previously caused me any issues though. I used it for long uninterrupted streaming sessions previously. However, at the time only 44.1/16 and Tidal due to a slower internet at my previous place. Might be that the new Ventura OS comes into play somehow, but I am not sure. Have deleted and added the Ethernet service several times and even went through the settings with Apple support.

This is very hard for me to isolate and reproduce for testing as I always have to listen for between a couple of minutes to maybe 15-20 minutes before dropout.

For now, my conclusion is: it seems as if Roon use (and only Roon use) via Ethernet leads to loss and restart of the Ethernet service on my Mac. Roon seems to “demand” something from the Ethernet connection that makes it fail and restart. Ethernet otherwise seems to work fine, as do downloads and network and 192/24 playback on both Mac and Zen. And weirdly enough Roon core on Wifi works… Core on Wifi might however not be the best solution at times when my kids start streaming video all over the place via Wifi…

[Axel_Lesch]

I have no idea if that’s pure coincidence? I just recalled it, the similarity is striking.

Qobuz media loading slowly, issue

No idea what’s going on but I use my Macbook Air as my core and I am streaming wirelessly to an ifi zen stream, and when I’m using roon I can’t play any songs for more than a few seconds and then I get the “Qobuz media loading slowly…” message and it stops. I can open up Qobuz app on my laptop and stream with NO issues at all. An internet speed test came back 110 Mbps download, 10 mpbs upload. I have rebooted the computer, modem, roon, have logged out of qobuz and logged back in thru roon, no…

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

Hmm… I get the part where people say Roon is more demanding than other software with regard to network capabilities…That might or might not be justified to different extents.

Roon should however not be more demanding in getting streams to the Macbook/core, shouldn’t it? Qobuz does not give a different file to Roon than to others…
I do understand that streaming Qobuz directly to the Zen using eg MConnect might use less bandwidth than the unpacked data going from core to streamer - and that this unpacked stream from Roon might need to be very stable…

My problem is however slightly different than the one referenced:
→ I can use Roon via Wifi at 192/24! To both streamer and Macbook’s/core’s audio output.
→ I can also stream High Res Qobuz via Ethernet either to my laptop (Qobuz app on Macbook) or to the Zen Stream (MConnect - even with Ethernet Macbook as control point).
→ What happens is that Ethernet goes down when I try to play via Roon core (on the Macbook) per Ethernet to either the streamer or even to the Macbook (ie the core’s) audio output itself.
→ Ethernet works stable otherwise and achieves download speeds that are 30-40% higher than my Wifi.
→ That leads me to assume that there is something “demanded” by the Roon server SW that crashes the Ethernet until it recovers approx 15s later after it lost all connections. What that would be and whether that could be related to traffic to or from the core I have no idea… but the available download speed is not it…

[Axel_Lesch]

@Jan-Uwe_Hilger

Should I remove my NAS location from the library in Roon?

@Wes

I would definitely fix the storage access timeouts by ensuring your credentials are set accordingly and that Roon can see the share.
I see a loss of network connectivity

@Jan-Uwe_Hilger Did you try?

Regarding the loss of network connectivity… are you sure that multicast is configured correctly in your TP-LINK system? I have to say that this is crucial for Roon to function properly, far more than for other applications.
And unfortunately different from router to router. As it should be with yours, you would have to try.

At least I found this article here:

https://www.tp-link.com/us/configuration-guides/configuring_layer_2_multicast/?configurationId=18230

Networking Best Practices

Good luck!

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

Sorry… you lost me completely… I do not find the recommendations in the reply…
Am I supposed to have only network gear that cannot prioritize traffic as you would for TV and gaming?
Am I supposed to switch off IGMP Snooping?
What is Multicast configured “correctly”?

I have not made any advanced configurations…
Don’t know what to do anymore…

[Axel_Lesch]

Sorry, as I said before, I do not know how it should be configured, you would have to try.
If I tell you how it works with my Asus network and absolutely problem-free Netgear GS108 switch, that’s no use to you.
I wrote before:

@Axel_Lesch

If possible, could you still try whether Qobuz playback works when your core machine is connected directly to the modem and the TP Link is removed from the network, for testing purposes only?

Sorry again, I was just trying to let you know what I would try myself if this issue was my own.
Let’s see what Wes has to say about this, unfortunately I can’t think of anything more about it.
Good luck!

[shankha]

I have this problem as well. There’re no dropouts when streaming from my library on the NAS. Only on Qobuz.

I’m using a wired network.

[Jan-Uwe_Hilger]

Thx for your suggestions.

I have at least removed the TP Link SG-105 PE and connected the core directly to the router. That did not help. Plugging core into the same switch as Zen and NAS did not help. Plugging all into the modem is a physical impossibility.
Turned of multicasting, IGMP Proxy, and IGMP Snooping on the router - did not help.

After four days of testing and buying a new switch to hardwire my core, and then buying a new router, as well as talking to ISP, Apple, and frequenting this forum, I am still open to suggestions. But this evening, I will just bring out the vinyl…

[Axel_Lesch]

@Jan-Uwe_Hilger

After four days of testing and buying a new switch to hardwire my core, and then buying a new router, as well as talking to ISP, Apple, and frequenting this forum, I am still open to suggestions. But this evening, I will just bring out the vinyl…

Arrgh, that’s tough!
I am sincerely sorry. It’s good that you still seem to have your sense of humor, I even had to laugh. Maybe you’ll take a look here for a change and let it all sink in…

The Vinyl Bar (Yes, we’re open) [2022-03]

Our corner where we can talk about vinyl, share records we have recently purchased, old and new releases, pre-orders, talk about your collection… the lot! No arguing about which sounds better - vinyl or digital You will be painfully moderated by Kevin aka @AceRimmer. Plus, we all know MIDI is king! PS: This will also be the place where we (try to) convince @Michael_Harris to buy his first turntable, or chip in to buy him one Also linking to this great turntable s…

But also that…

Whisk(e)y loving objectivists’ corner

After upgrading to 778 AND having a double whiskey the metal front ladies appear more 3 dimensional. Unfortunately this morning after waking up with some headache, they appear again more flat. I have to repeat the experiment tonight.

If it’s any consolation, I almost threw my stuff out the window once.
I hope @Wes has something helpful to say or someone in the community may have another suggestion!