Show all Artists fails with manually added Genres (through Roon interface)

[Nathan_Wilkes]

Hello @support.

When viewing a manually created Genre, the “Show All Artists” link fails:

When I use Focus in Artists, the Genre does not show up:

But when I use Focus in Albums, they show up:

Please note that new Genres imported through file tags works fine:

[Nathan_Wilkes]

Hey @support, I really think this is a bug to be noted. If there is a better way to submit defects, let me know. Thanks.

[eric (Eric Stewart)]

Thanks for the report @Nathan_Wilkes! I have passed your feedback over to our tech team for review and testing. Once I get an update from the team on this behavior you’ve reported I will be sure to follow up asap.

Your patience is appreciated!
-Eric

[eric (Eric Stewart)]

Hi @Nathan_Wilkes ---- Thank you again for your feedback and more importantly, thank you for your patience while our tech team has been looking into this behavior you’ve reported to us.

Continuing forward, our tech team has tried to reproduce this issue and are struggling to do so In light of this our techs have asked if you would kindly verify that you are noticing this with ALL manually created genres.

Furthermore, if you can provide any additional insight (procedurally speaking) on how you are triggering this in the application it would be very appreciated!

-Eric

[Nathan_Wilkes]

Hello @Eric,

I believe the procedure was something like:

1. Edit Album (Haydn op. 20 for example)

2. Edit Metadata

3. Add new genre “String Quartet”

4. Edit “String Quartet” and change parent to “Classical”

5. Select other similar albums and add new Genre

6. Open “String Quartet” from Genre menu. Artist total is “0”.

7. Open other genre such as “17th C”, and Artist total is >0.

**

Further, yes this happens with “String Quintet” as well. I have not tried single words or further examples. Most of my custom genres have come through file tags, partly based on prior music systems navigation flaws.

The reason I added the genre was in hopes that this would influence radio to understand related albums.

[eric (Eric Stewart)]

Thanks for the follow up @Nathan_Wilkes, the additional feedback is appreciated!

I am going to be passing this over to our techs for further evaluation, but I am still a touch unclear if this is happening with all of your manually created genres. You mentioned that “most” of the genres come through, so I am assuming that you are not experiencing this behavior with genre you’ve created, correct?

-Eric

[Nathan_Wilkes]

@eric,

Genres created through file tags: no issues or problems, majority of custom genres created this way.

Genres created in Roon: all exhibit behaviour, only a few custom genres created this way.

Is there any other evidence that I can provide?

[eric (Eric Stewart)]

Thanks for the clarification @Nathan_Wilkes, appreciated!

I am going to pass this feedback over to my techs for review and If they require any additional information/materials I will be sure to follow back up with you.

Thanks again!
-Eric

[Nathan_Wilkes]

FYI, this still is broken. For example:

Any possibility of adding this to a bug list for resolution in the next release? @eric @mike

[BlackJack]

An attempt for an explanation:

For Roon: Albums ≠ Primary Artists

If one adds a Genre to an Album in Roon, this Genre doesn’t get (automatically) added to the Primary Artist. One has to do this himself. It might be that this works differently when Genres get imported from filetags, but it works this way (on my system) when done in Roon.

For Roon: Primary Artist ≠ other credited Artists

The Artists Browser contains only Primary Artists. Other Artists credited on Albums/Tracks/Compositions are not shown here. “View All # Artists” is just a link to the Artists Browser and thus any other Artists, even the ones shown in the actual (sub)genre, are not counted if they aren’t Primary Artist on at least one Album in your Library.

I don’t use own Genres in any way but my Genres Browser is full of such subgenres without Primary Artists. It seems that Roon takes a list of all credited Artists out of the personal Library which have at least one Genre attached to populate the Genres Browser. If I’m interested in the information, I can click on the listed Artists which brings me to the artists pages where I can find out on which Album(s)/Track(s)/Composition(s) they were involved.

I fear that nothing of the behaviour you mentioned is considered a bug and all is working as designed/intended – but sometimes just not very intuitive to understand for the users.

[Nathan_Wilkes]

Thank you @BlackJack for your helpful, lengthy explanation. While I disagree about the existence a bug (it shouldn’t matter whether a genre is specified in the file or via the web GUI), I understand the whole notion of “as designed”, much as it frustrates me as a user. In my professional world I would retort that the design can be bad, despite being implemented perfectly (to “spec”).

I guess that it is my opinion that displaying a few “Artists” but then having the “View All” link error is weird behaviour, strictly from a UX perspective. I may be alone on this point however.

I use genres because it has a significant influence on radio.

Thanks again for taking the time to write.

[BlackJack]

I guess that it is my opinion that displaying a few “Artists” but then having the “View All” link error is weird behaviour, strictly from a UX perspective. I may be alone on this point however.

You’re not alone.

Others ask for a possibility to view all credited Artists in the Library (can’t find a reference at the moment) since long.

"Various Artists" as an Artist in Artist Browser

Could the Artist browser (which is after all the AlbumArtist browser) please include Compilations/Various Artists albums? Currently I have to go to Albums, sort on artist (not my preferred) and then scroll to V. Would be much better to be able to go directly via the artist browser.

(Most) other player software handles it that way.

Please include track artists in artist browser

Currently it seems the Artists browser only includes Album Artists. This means any artists one has only in compilations or appear only as guests/featured artists in collaborations aren’t listed, and so aren’t included when browsing. The only way I have found to see all such artists is through the Tracks view and including Artist in the table fields, and then sorting by that field. But even that won’t show secondary artists in their own right. Could we at least have a custom setting to include …

Or add at the track performers on VA Albums to the Artists Browser.

Multiple artist selection to Add/Remove Genre (artist lever)

Of course, we can modify album genre for multiple album in a one step submit, but, it’s look impossible to do the same for artist genre, I want to change the artist genre for a bunch of artist in a one shot step instead of doing it one by one.

Might also be handy to have in your case.

[Nathan_Wilkes]

For Roon: Albums ≠ Primary Artists

It has taken me a few tries to understand why you wrote this, because at first glance it seems obvious. But, I now understand that this is about the data model. Allow me to summarize to make sure I have it right now:

The way it seems to work is if one creates a new genre in Roon, no relationship will be made with the Artist objects (despite the fact that it seems weird that a genre would be valid for music on an album and not for the Artist performing it?) and thus the URL link to Artists will rightly error and show zero. However, Roon tries to be helpful and “guess”, thus displaying Artists (correctly) based on the albums.

Next, if one for example writes the new genre onto the file tags (For example “Jazz;1930s Jazz”) of an album, the relationship will be made automatically. (Or, as you say, edit the Artist and manually add the new genre.) Furthermore, since there is 1 true Artist now found, Roon doesn’t guess and display the others anymore — now 1 Artist is shown and the URL reports “1” Artist.

The solution for me, I guess, is never to add or edit genres in Roon, always use file tags.

@BlackJack , I really appreciate that you took the time to explain to me what was happening.

Nathan

[BlackJack]

Yes, you got it right. Just a remark, to clarify.

Or, as you say, edit the Artist and manually add the new genre.

Only if you manually add Genres in Roon. You then have to add them on the Album and the Primary Artist(s) – and also on involved Artists if you wish that the Genre also affects them – by yourself. And the same has to be done for Album(s), Primary Artist(s) and other involved Artist(s) too if you want to delete Genere(s) of course.

Note: As of my short testing, the automatic addition of Genres, when importing from file tags, only affects the Album Artist, other credited Artists don’t get the Genre(s) automatically added.