Source used by Roon for dynamic range

The DROffline tool needs a PCM file to process. It won’t work with Qobuz or Tidal.

Got it. Oliver Masciarotte (MAAT) indicates that realtime DRi measurement from streamed music requires an audiophile player that hosts plug-ins (DRMeter and DRMeter MkII). He showed me an example of output from DROffline’s formatted log. How different is this value from the Roon R128 value?

Where did you discover the method used in Roon to measure DR?

This is an interesting rabbit hole. Sounds like I’d have to be using Amarra for realtime streaming DR assessment, which is what I use to guide purchases. Not interested in going there just now.

Thank you again.

It is documented:
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Volume_Leveling
https://kb.roonlabs.com/Dynamic_Range

See also https://community.roonlabs.com/search?q=R128 for more information.

When comparing enabling and disabling volume leveling it’s important to level match the output otherwise the higher dB output will sound better. It’s how our ear/brain works.

R128 punishes those tracks/album based on how far they take the ‘loudness’ war. The more compressed, the lower the output volume.

Thank you for the pointer showing method. Have been trying to see whether Qobuz can disclose such information. Turns out the method used for measuring dynamic range isn’t as straightforward as loudness.

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Thank you. I was aware of Fletcher-Munson curves and effects, but was interested in the compression for loudness tradeoff and how this is measured. Love the fact that a form of dynamic range (DR) is in Roon and this led me to make a suggestion to Qobuz that they also provide such a measurement. Speed-Racer provided information that indicates that the R 128 method used in Roon may not be as helpful as other DR measurements. Since DR can not be measured in realtime without some additional software, I can see why Qobuz and Tidal don’t provide such useful information.

Don’t confuse Fletcher-Munson curves with the ‘loudness’ war. R128 does not change dynamic range of the music nor does it increase bass and treble at low volumes where our ears are less sensitive.

R128 is not intended nor designed to measure DR. It’s mission is to reduce the volume to a standard. Many use -16LUFS. I prefer -22LUFS but it’s all up to you in Roon to choose.

EBU R 128 is a recommendation for loudness normalisation and maximum level of audio signals. It is primarily followed during audio mixing of television and radio programmes and adopted by broadcasters to measure and control programme loudness

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Thank you. I’ve been unclear. I have been referring to the range value reported below sample rate/word length in Roon, which is a major factor in determining whether I will purchase or can listen to a recording. Music I bought previous to being able to measure this is all over the place and the recordings I enjoy are all with range > 9. The Jazz and Classical music typically runs > 12.

Sound equalization or leveling is not something I’ve actively pursued. I just dial up the volume on my DAC for this. Sounds like this is a bit tricky, given Speed_Racer’s observations. Referred to Fletcher-Munson as it refers to volume effect on sound quality and which, I assume is the point of sound equalization.

Now I’m curious about whether sound leveling is pre-applied to music I stream from Qobuz through Roon. Might explain why I hear differences between music I’ve purchased/downloaded from Qobuz versus streaming of the recording with identical sample rate/word length. I always prefer the downloaded version. Then again, may be buyer’s bias.

Thank you. You’ve got me wondering now whether streamed Qobuz music coming through Roon is being volume leveled. I like the rawest signals I can get and then turn up the volume to where I enjoy it. Speed_Racer wrote about sound stage degradation with sound leveling and that concerns me.

As from the information from the threads linked above, no (if you don’t enable volume leveling in Roon).

Well, you are probably splitting hairs. R128 does produce a value that people call “Dynamic Range” even if the standard calls it “Loudness Range”. Roon even calls it “Dynamic Range”. Whatever you call it, it’s just not very good for indicating how compressed tracks actually are.

I encourage you to give Volume Leveling a try for a week or so. I find it does a great job of evening out the experience when playing random tracks. My system is capable of significant range and I don’t like one track at X and the next at +15dB.

Continue to use your volume control as you do now.

I would caution against excluding any music simply based on it’s calculated dynamic range, irrespective of the model used. This value alone is not a terribly good indication of the quality of the recording nor reproduction.

I like to use the DR values only for comparison between different versions/masters of the same piece.

If I’m hunting the best version of a particular work I will search the DR DB - http://dr.loudness-war.info but only as a data point as the information is provided by people much like Wikipedia. People can and do mess with existing data, delete data and enter inaccurate data (either intentionally or mistakenly).

With Qobuz, Tidal and Spotify available I don’t purchase as many CDs as I used to but I will from time to time when a particular album has a strong impact on me emotionally. I always attempt to purchase directly from the artist via Bandcamp or the their web site to give them more $ and encourage what they do.

Have you heard the ‘polish’ of a well constructed convolution filter? It can be a deep hole to explore but Roon makes is quite easy to apply, once you’ve made or got the filters.

I would argue that the DR method yields incredibly good indications of how compressed recorded music actually is. You can have well recorded and well mixed music that is overly compressed.

I absolutely agree. I guess what I should have said is the level of compression is not alone a good indicator of how much the track/album will move me, cause me to tap my foot, get up and move around (dare I say dance).

I find it fatiguing to listen to overly dynamic music. The difference from the low levels to the peak can be overwhelming. Granted, it’s probably only a fraction of what I listen to that does this to me and not all the time but sometimes I do feel my system is too capable to reproducing dynamics. Rather the recordings dynamics are more than I care for at that moment in time and not limited by the reproduction.

From what I’ve read of the mastering process(es) out there, select compression is needed otherwise one instrument could drown out others.

Some of my favorite music is quite dynamic…I guess I would say that I have not come across music that is too dynamic.

Yes, mastering does have to use some compression…but not to the level that most pop music uses today.

My experience as well. Clearly good performers, good sound engineering are fundamental sound quality determinants. Lower DR works of the same piece are uniformly less interesting and more fatiguing to me as my brain tries to find missing information it expects to be there.

I agree, not just today, but for much of the past 40 years or since they were able to discern more people listened to the ‘loudest’ radio station simply because it was louder. More ears hearing the bill paying, profit making advertising.

It’s the difference in dynamic range that can be too great for me sometimes. My particular hearing damage exacerbates it; hyperacusis.

Ouch. I am sorry that you have that. Besides being deaf, or a lot of ringing, that is the last hearing disorder I would choose to have.

That’s what I hoped. I’ll be contacting Qobuz about this, though.

Thank you