The shape of Roon Community to come?

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Indeed, I can’t always help pointing out sloppy thinking. (Many times I do let it go though). Of course the consequences differ but the logical structure doesn’t.

Nobody questions that you hear it, just like some people on the Naim forum hear a difference if the Naim phone app updates, and if someone points out that the app is just a remote control they feel their golden ears and their 18 box system were insulted.

And I think it’s not a good look to insist in 2023 that one’s personal subjective experiences are the objective truth and trump evidence and science. It’s embarrassing really.

Edit: Anyway I have no idea why some people write as if I was a great offender. 99,9% of my forum time is spent on helping other users. I mute nearly all of the contentious threads but occasionally I point out a misconception. So what, surely that’s just as OK as insisting that something happens that science and engineering can’t explain but must be true because someone had an experience.

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Perhaps a perusal of the #music category of the forum would prove fruitful? Plenty of good conversations in there, I find…

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@Jeff_Ward2

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I have no interest in massive omnibus threads. Life is short. I also read the UX thread when it started in April Besides tech-bashing, the number one sport is killing the thread by saying “been there done that” and posting a link. Hardly promotes conversation. This place seems more toxic all the time. Perfect way to prove the point.

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I agree. You helped me a lot when I first started and was quite frustrated. You were patient and understanding. But you must also admit that you can be intolerant and short in your interactions.

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Alright gents, this thread is turning into a bunch of

Dear Kettle, you are black.

Signed,
Pot

Yes, we’d like for people to feel comfortable sharing their thoughts while listening to music without being assailed for daring to describe experiential sensation. Some folks seem congenitally incapable of allowing that. So, here’s a helpful link to the Forum Rules and Guidelines.
Please abide by them or find another corner of the internet. These threads are getting a bit tedious, frankly.

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The original post contains more than a trace of hypocrisy.

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I’ve re-read Mikael’s original post, and am somewhat unhappy.

It’s “this” and “that”. Please don’t patronize the guy or those of us who respect his work; he’s after all another forum member, who doesn’t participate much.

This is a condescending and trivializing straw man argument. Followed by ad hominem (“aggressors”, “attacking in packs” (like wolves), “bullying”, “vitriolic comments”). Why should this kind of thing be allowed?

Unfortunately, the world of audiophilia seems to be full of frauds preying on the gullible. I’m unsure why it’s a bad thing to identify them?

I recommend a good Jesuit education, personally. You have to put up with a fair amount of questionable theology :smile: , but the training in logic, composition, and debate is first-rate.

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I honestly can’t see the point of this thread apart from OP instigating an almighty s#l+storm and pouring more fuel on it as it goes on.

@mods - can this just be shut down now please?

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I’m beginning to reach the stage where it’s time to decide whether to continue to a limited degree or to be done with the Roon Community for good.

I’m a scientist. Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Microbiology and their applications. A good immersion in optoelectronics and laser engineering. Holograms. Fibre optics going back to 1988. Stepped and graded index fibres, their design, construction and fabrication. Optics, refractive indices, abberations. Networking. Token ring, twisted pair ethernet. TCP/IP. Electrical and electronic engineering are little more than applied physics. Physics has well established laws. There’s nothing unique about audio. It’s electrics, electronics and transducers. Yet somehow far too many people hold beliefs which contravene the laws of physics, fly in the face of engineering sense, argue that robustly proven scientific principles are invalid because your science doesn’t align with my perception, eschewing controlled listening, denying cognitive bias.

I don’t care whether someone spends the equivalent of the GDP of a small country on their hi-fi rig. It’s your money. I don’t care whether you buy designer clothes, a Breitling or a Rolex, a Porsche, Ferrari, McLaren, Bentley, Bugatti or whatever.

Just don’t try to justify your purchase of snake-oil products by making impossible claims contrary to proven science and then making ad-hominem attacks on people with far more knowledge than you who disagree with your faslely-held beliefs.

I go out of my way to help people struggling with the technical aspects of implementing Roon functionality in their systems and have come up with a good number of solitions to support requests. Where are all the snake-oil believers in this arena? Nowhere, because the fundamental understanding of the technology is lost on them.

Lies, falsehoods, fake news and anti-intellectualism are the new maladies of the 21st century.

I honestly think it’s high-time I checked out.

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While it is a rather popular political point of view these days, in reality not all opinions are equally worthwhile. Being short and intolerant with people running around claiming that the Earth is flat isn’t that much of a vice.

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As I understand it the original post is calling for greater moderation of ‘objectivist’ posts on the basis that they are inhibiting participation in discussions by people with different opinions.

The Mods see a lot, but by no means everything. If you think a post infringes the Guidelines, flag it and explain why. One of the aims of the Guidelines is to encourage civil discussion. Posts that inhibit discussion and breach the Guidelines will be moderated.

But what if a post doesn’t clearly breach the Guidelines ? Obviously there is capacity for people to have differing opinions about that. There is a tension between encouraging free discussion and restricting non-infringing posts that are likely to provoke an infringing response. Mods discuss flags over lineball cases. Sometimes we treat non-infringing provocative posts as hostage to fortune. If they lead to infringing responses then they are themselves removed. Sometimes we close things down in advance because of prior experience with similar threads.

If you don’t think the Guidelines go far enough in restricting undesirable posts, what changes would you suggest ?

I haven’t perceived a slant by either Roon staff or Mods in favour of objectivists. Most of them that I have discussed SQ and similar issues with have a healthy balance between regarding marketing claims with scepticism tempered with a recognition that our ears can hear things that our instruments can’t (yet) measure.

Personally I don’t like seeing anyone ‘howled down’ and threads have been Moderated where Mods see people ‘piling on’. If you think that is happening, flag it.

I would encourage anyone making objectivist criticisms to express them in a non-confrontational way. Explain why you don’t find such claims persuasive, rather than commenting on the failings of those who are persuaded. Once you’ve made your point, move on. Repetition doesn’t improve an argument.

Ultimately, however, civil discussion also requires a recognition that others may disagree with you. Even for reasons that you find unreasonable. If you can accept that and don’t treat any failure to agree with you as a personal attack or insult or as inhibiting your own conduct, then you will have a happier life.

The shape of Roon Community to come will be what we all make it. Or as Gillian and David say: The way you made it, that’s the way it will be.

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I appreciate the feedback, and of course realize that it’s not an easy task allowing dicussion and conflicting opinions (because, to be true there are not much facts or proof being presented, by anyone).

In the end it’s my choice to participate, or not. And to be true, this takes more energy than it gives, so i’ll rather invest my time in other pastimes.

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