Recordings in collection but missing from listing on Composition page

Core Machine (Operating system/System info/Roon build number)

ROCK Version 1.0 (build 227) stable
Roon Server Version 1.8 (build 783) stable

Local Files only

Description Of Issue

It is the easter week and I’d wanted to listen Bach’s St. Matthew Passion. Checking my recordings I found that I see only one single recording on the main composition page, while I have 47 recordings (including excerpts).

Checking this recording I see that I should have in fact 47 recordings

All my other recordings of BWV 244 show the same number, but I cannot find them via this link. I need to find them via album name:

Funy thing: when I search for “BWV 244” the hit for the composition shows the cover of a Helmuth Rilling compliation that I won’t find when clicking on it…

Clicking on it, I will only come Bach to the composition screen, showing the single recording from Ralf Otto.

Navigating to any other recording with the St. Matthew on it will always show me the 47 recordings I have in my library

Also the composition browser confirms the 47

This is nothappening with all compositions, but I have identified some others. Another example:

I should have 61 recordings of Mahlers 1st. I get to see only 3 of them

Any idea what is happening here? This is most annoying and did not happen before. Can’t say it started with 1.8 or any further release of 1.8, though, but I’m pretty sure I didn’t have it with 1.7. Absolutely sure for the Bach.

I f anybody asks: Yes I have rebooted my client and my core several times…

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I have done some file tag editiing (changed the ALBUM tag and the WORK/PART tag for the Zinman Mahler 1) and lost Zinmans Mahler 1. Now I have only 2 recordings left.

However, I found that all Mahler symphonies have these 2 recordings only:

Mahler 2

Mahler 6

Mahler 5 only gives me the Gielen recording

I have WORK/PART tag set for all recordings (the Zinman was the only one missing it). The St. Matthew-Passions are all completely tagges with WORK/PART.

I seem to have found the issue. I had the indicator “Only complete recordings” switched on. I did this when 1.8 was released in order to test its behaviour with Qobuz. In the meantime I have discarded my streaming subscription again but I left this flag set as “on”.

I’m surprised that it had any effect on my local library at all

@support

Is this intended behaviour? If yes, what is the indicator for a “complete” recording used for local library files?

I have reported this issue many times before. @bbrip also. As far as I know, Roon has not acknowledged the problem @support please ?

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As @Andre_Gosselin says, this is known since almost 2 months. Probably fell thru the cracks

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“Complete Performance” is data we get from one of our metadata providers. It’s pretty comprehensive, but like any metadata there will be gaps and mistakes.

When Roon matches an album, some performances may include the “complete” flag and only those with the flag will be displayed when the toggle is set.

This can happen when we identify a streaming album or a local album but we only know if the flag is set or not. This means that while the list should only contain complete performances, it’s definitely possible that some complete performances are missing.

Our goal here was to make it easy for people exploring classical music to find full performances, as opposed to accidentally stumbling on excepts or sifting through the list based on duration. If you’re missing performances or finding this data is incomplete or inaccurate, flipping the toggle off should show you the same list as previous versions of Roon.

We have ideas about improving and expanding this data in the future, but since we had a well-populated flag available we wanted to get this into the product as part of the 1.8 release.

Is the „complete“ flag you mention a tag one could add to each flac-file for which all other flac comprised in the complete work are in the library?

It’s not possible yet, but its a good one for the feature requests category – definitely something I’d like to add support for in the future if there’s interest.

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Thanks for the update, Mike.

I’m not sure, I completely understand. Would the Mahler 1st symphony composition view exclude the same albums if I’d use a streaming service? Maybe some other user could test.

Sure I am interested.With such a file tag, I would be at least assured that performances which I know are complete will indeed show up in my local library.

Another question for you @mike. Is there a way to check for the presence of this “complete” flag in the metadata coming from your providers, eg AllMusic or MusicBrainz ? It’s the vey first time I ever hear of this flag.
.
Regards

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I did not test with the Mahler 1, but with Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique by Nézet-Séguin. With “Only complete recordings” activated, both my local copy and the one available on Qobuz disappear.This is so even if I unidentify the albums.

Where is this toggle please? It doesn’t work for me at all but I cannot find it to switch it off.

@Klaus_Kammerer1. I must have this flag set on but I have no idea where it is :frowning_face:. Looked for hours. Where is it hidden?

Hi Tony

it is on the composition page. Don‘t you see it there?

Mike,
I spent a couple of hours thinking and working about your message. I went back to my test case, Symphonie fantastique by Berlioz, comparing results with the “Only complete recordings” (OCR) setting on vs off.

Focusing on my local library, I know I have 14 complete recordings of this work, all Roon-identified. With OCR activated, only 7 are listed. That is a hit rate of 50%.

Focusing on Hires and Qobuz (local library excluded), with OCR off, I get 98 results. I carefully scanned this list, and could identify 50 complete performances inside it After activating OCR, the list shrinks to 21. The hit rate is less than 50%. Notable missing performances are those by Bernstein, Abbado, Gergiev, Cluytens, Wallenstein , Nézet-Séguin, among others. Not obscure conductors.

With all respect, I qualify those results as poor. It looks like the “complete” flag you get from your metadata providers (which ones?) are flaky and way incomplete. Frankly speaking, how long will it take to get the providers to fix that ? Is Roon going to request the providers to do that ? When you say that “we only know if the flag is set or not” what do you precisely mean. When it is set, is it explicitly set to “complete” or “incomplete”.

If the flag does not appear inside the providers metadata, does Roon interpret this as “unknown” or as “incomplete” ? If the first case (no flag) is true, then deciding that “only those with the flag will be displayed when the toggle is set” is likely to be wrong. If the flag is absent from the metadata, you cannot conclude anything and another technique should be sought to identify an incomplete performance,

I understand that the current implementation of the toggle can help eliminating lots of excerpts and please those “exploring classical music”. But please do not forget and penalize those (experienced, old, passionate) people who know their libraries . And please, please, please, do not throw into oblivion important performances, just because a complete flag is missing or wrongly set in the metadata.

So here are my thoughts on what should be done.

  1. The toggle should not be activated by default.
  2. The toggle should be removed from its actual location (@bbrip has already mentioned it is ill-placed), and given its own place on the composition page. Too many people have complained they do not know about its existence or where to find it.
  3. The beta-status of the toggle should be clearly indicated.
  4. The toggle should be deactivated upon entering the composition page, to force users to explicitly set it each time if needed.
  5. For those (important experienced users) with local files, a way to tag those files with a complete/incomplete status should be implemented asap. I do not understand why you would wait for a feature request, and then think about its merits.
  6. You already know that many users are “sifting through the list based on duration”. Could you not integrate this procedure in your selection algorithm ?

Regards,

6 Likes

Thankyou @Andre_Gosselin. Couldn’t agree more.

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Ran into this problem this morning and it took me a few minutes to figure out what was going on. I thought maybe that Roon was using the total time in some way to determine if the performance was complete or an excerpt. Then searching the forum found this thread and see that it is (rather poorly) supplied metadata. The “hit” rate on complete recordings in my library is not even close to 50%. In my case, I was looking at Beethoven’s 5th. I have 10 complete recordings in my library, but with “OCR” flag set to on, it is filtered to 3. Ugh. I agree with @Andre_Gosselin that this should be addressed. Giving us a way to set the flag on local files would be the best solution given the no where near complete metadata.

A way to toggle the “Complete Performance” flag for linked and properly identified compositions would be great. Thanks.

To augment the data, I know I have 18 complete recordings of Symphonie Fantastique (as per length and hand confirmation of five movements). With OCR activated, six are listed for a 33% “success” rate.

my 2c

Thanks for your 2c.

@mike To add yet another 2c of mine, I went back to the AllMusic Berlioz compositions page and scrolled to the Symphonie fantastique entry. Note that AllMusic discriminates between “Complete” and “Excerpt” performance type. Here the performance by Yannick Nézet-Séguin is clearly listed under “Complete performances”:



As can be seen in my earlier posts, I have the Yannick Nézet-Séguin recording download in my local library, but it does not show as complete when the OCR setting is activated.

Here is a case where AllMusic/TiVo metadata are right, but appear to be misinterpreted / ignored by Roon. Since AllMusic/TiVo is such an important metadata supplier for Roon, I assume that Roon should know about the complete/excerpt categorization already available in AllMusic/Tivo. I am surprised by what I have found. I previously asked about the origin of the metadata used by Roon to set its OCR flag, but got no answer. Can I ask again ?

It would be interesting to get a comment from Roon about that.

Regards

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